Formation Takeoff

[jetdx]

I haven't been playing A-10C very long but I have come across an annoying issue.

 

When I do a mission that requires a takeoff (from startup) and I have a wingman. What do I need to do to get him to line up for a two-ship takeoff? I know that in Falcon you need to taxi up to a certain point before your wingman gets in line for takeoff. Is it the same with DCS: A-10C?

[Mud]

As far as I know, that only works if you start from the runway. Starting from the ramp will always result in single take-offs.

[joey45]

very annoying. Especially if it's an AI flight.

[GGTharos]

In any case, form takeoff with live A2G munitions is prohibited IRL.

[jetdx]

ok...good...thx. I can quit trying it and thinking about it.

[thaisocom]

In any case, form takeoff with live A2G munitions is prohibited IRL.

Thanks for the info. :thumbup:

[CADelta]

In any case, form takeoff with live A2G munitions is prohibited IRL.

 

Oh really :doh:

 

That is super. I was sitting and waiting for you to eventually fix this so when we roll out together in Multiplayer the ATC wouldn't go ape shit and we all actually could get a cleared for takeoff :)

 

Makes it so much more easy to accept when it is according to real life parameters/procedures.

 

So thank you for clearing that up Tharos :smartass:

 

 

/Krycek

[EtherealN]

Well, to be entirely fair, you could still do delay takeoffs while still being on the runway. (For example like how a fighter flight-of-four might take off in elements with couple second delays.)

 

But for obvious reasons, if it is an option, it is always good from a security standoint to have some separation in the takeoff. It has happened to me that I had to abort after takeoff (birds <3), and if the next guy had already passed v2 things could have turned hairy. :P

 

All of that said... The only thing that is more fun than a formation takeoff is a formation landing. :D

[hog_driver111th]

We do formation takeoffs daily even fully loaded (at the 76th). Formation landings are fairly easy too, since we're usually empty and low on gas by that point... at least with the mission we run.

[CEPEGA]

Formation landings are fairly easy too, since we're usually empty and low on gas by that point... at least with the mission we run.

 

So be happy that i'm not in your flight group. I guess i would screw everybody up in front or beside me trying to land in formation. At the moment i'm happy if i hit the middle of the runway on landings :D

[EtherealN]

That's just practice. My first FC2 formation landing was actually done while talking on the phone (my dad called just as we entered final) and though it was ugly, I still sort of made it.

 

To make a "good" one takes a bit of training though. You essentially need to fight against your instinct to look at the runway and just keep flying a fingertip formation, placing your lead's head on the horizon, and land yourself as you get to the point of flare. In the beginning it feels very weird to go final without tracking the runway, but as long as you can do fingertip you can do it. :)

 

...if you can't do fingertip, find someone to train you in it. It just takes practice. :)

[Snoopy]

I put a formation guide together (see link in signature My Guides/Checklists) and am currently updating to show the real world A-10 requirements for not only 2 ship but 4 ships (we don't fly flights of more than 4 real world).

 

Also, like GGTharos said formation takeoffs are not authorized with live munitions. AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 11-2A/OA-10, A/OA-10--Operation Procedures paragraph 3.7.3 outlines the restrictions for formation takeoffs(available on e-pubs).

 

3.7.3. Formation takeoffs will not be made when:

 

3.7.3.1. Runway width is less than 140 feet.

3.7.3.2. Standing water, ice, slush or snow is on the runway.

3.7.3.3. RCR is less than 12.

3.7.3.4. The crosswind or gust component exceeds 15 knots.

3.7.3.5. Computed takeoff roll in excess of 70 percent of available runway length.

3.7.3.6. Loaded with live munitions (excluding 30mm, rockets, flares or air-to-air missiles).

3.7.3.7. Ferrying aircraft from contractor/ALC facilities.

[lubey]

Is it standard practice to to formation landings in RL? Because the AI loves doing them...

[Grimes]

Formation landing on a carrier is quite fun in FC2.

[44th_Rooster]

Is it standard practice to to formation landings in RL? Because the AI loves doing them...

Certainly depends on the mission.... in IFR when a wingman has an electrical failure and cant make it back to VFR then it is almost a given that the good jet will lead the bad jet through the weather back home....for a form landing. IRL certain parameters apply for form takeoffs.....weight, loadout, cloud decks visibility, RCR etc.....

 

I think everyone has said that already so I'm probably just repeating the info...

Edited July 30, 2011 by 44th_Rooster

[Snoopy]

I would say 98% of the time our pilots fly an overhead break pattern and have for my entire career. They do formation landings from time to time.

[BlueRidgeDx]

That's something I've been meaning to put into the wishlist thread...it would be great if the AI would charge up initial and take the overhead. Everyone making straight-ins is unnatural.

[bradleyjs]

That's something I've been meaning to put into the wishlist thread...it would be great if the AI would charge up initial and take the overhead. Everyone making straight-ins is unnatural.

 

I agree - all my time in the USAF the standard approach was always an overhead pattern to landing. It helps ATC with spacing-out the traffic on approach. As Paul said, it's very unusual to do straight-in approaches. But with IFE's - that's another story...

Edited July 30, 2011 by bradleyjs

[Eddie]

Excluding emergencies, and some operational flights (straight in is always good after 6 hours in the air) our jets always to overhead breaks as well. It's certainly the norm for fast jets (and hogs ;)) all over the world I think.

[Snoopy]

Overhead breaks are not recommended over a certain weight or bomb load if I remember right.

 

Nothing in the C-1 states any weight restrictions, there are some in the below OI (available on E-pubs).

 

Per the 11-2A/OA-10, A/OA-10--Operations Procedures:

 

3.22.3. Landing Restrictions:

3.22.3.1. When the computed landing roll exceeds 80 percent of the available runway, land at an alternate if possible.

3.22.3.2. When the RCR at the base of intended landing is less than 12 (unless specified otherwise by MAJCOM, AFRC or ANG), land at an alternate if possible.

3.22.3.3. Minimum landing RCR is 12. Per MAJCOM guidance, OG/CC may waive the minimum RCR, for specified units operating in cold weather locations, but in no case will landing be attempted with an RCR below 8.

3.22.3.3.1. (PACAF) 354 OG/CC may waive the minimum RCR for landing to 8. When the RCR is less than 12 and the crosswind component exceeds the RCR, landings are prohibited.

3.22.3.4. Do not land over any raised web barrier (e.g., MA-1A, 61QS11).

3.22.4. Normally all aircraft will land in the center of the runway and clear to the turnoff side of the runway when speed/conditions permit, unless local conditions dictate otherwise.

 

3.23. Overhead Traffic Patterns:

3.23.1. Altitude and airspeed will be IAW T.O. 1A-10A-1 or as directed locally.

3.23.2. Overhead patterns may be flown with unexpended practice ordnance, night illumination flares, 30 mm, unexpended live air-to-air and forward firing ordnance.

3.23.3. Initiate the break over the touchdown point or as directed.

3.23.4. Execute the break individually in a level 180 degree turn to the downwind leg at minimum intervals of 5 seconds (except IP/SEFE chase or when in tactical formation).

3.23.5. Aircraft will be wings level on final at approximately 300 feet AGL and 1 mile from the planned touchdown point.

 

3.24. Tactical Overhead Traffic Patterns:

3.24.1. Tactical entry to the overhead traffic pattern is permitted if the following conditions are met:

3.24.1.1. Use published overhead pattern altitude and airspeed.

3.24.1.2. Locally develop and coordinate with appropriate air traffic control agencies specific procedures.

3.24.1.3. Four aircraft are the maximum permitted. Aircraft/elements more than 6,000 feet in trail are considered a separate flight.

3.24.1.4. Normally position wingmen opposite the direction of the break.

3.24.1.5. Regardless of the formation flown, no aircraft should be offset from the runway in the direction of the break; the intent is to avoid requiring a tighter than normal turn to arrive on normal downwind.

3.24.1.6. Fly normal downwind and base position.

[44th_Rooster]

There is alot of general guidance shown above. To add to the general considerations I will say that if you have alot of weight with external tanks (even if the are empty), You still run the extra risk of developing larger slip angles etc in an overhead pattern, because it decreases the directional stability. Even if you add your 2 knots per 1,000lbs above 30,000lbs gross weight. One of the NWC's in the Dash 1 talks about During landing, a straight-in approach or a wide, conservative traffic pattern is "recommended" so that large sideslip angles can be avoided.

 

So heavy weight and external tanks "empty or full" is not the safest configuration to do an Overhead.

 

Sincerely,

"Rooster"

Edited July 31, 2011 by 44th_Rooster

[Snoopy]

There is alot of general guidance shown above. To add to the general considerations I will say that if you have alot of weight with external tanks (even if the are empty), You still run the extra risk of developing larger slip angles etc in an overhead pattern, because it decreases the directional stability. Even if you add your 2 knots per 1,000lbs above 30,000lbs gross weight. One of the NWC's in the Dash 1 talks about During landing, a straight-in approach or a wide, conservative traffic pattern is "recommended" so that large sideslip angles can be avoided.

 

So heavy weight and external tanks "empty or full" is not the safest configuration to do an Overhead.

 

Sincerely,

"Rooster"

 

You're correct and each base has it's own OIs on this subject as well. That being said everytime we've gotten jets coming home from the AOR with externals and two travel pods they fly the overhead pattern.

[44th_Rooster]

You are most certainly correct as well. To further the thought, when you receive jets I wouldn't imagine that they are landing at full fuel either which is more where that flight characteristic and "recommendation" is from (But certainly doesn't restrict). Yes every base has its guidance and local procedures but I think specifically I was referring to the really heavy weight. The Note in the Dash 1 gives that recommendation regardless, but it is also just a "note" and not a "caution" or "warning". Overheads with less weight in fuel plus tanks and pods would be normal operation for most pilots. Just not Fat with Fuel in that config is what I would say isn't as safe...

 

Sincerely,

"Rooster"

Edited July 31, 2011 by 44th_Rooster

[OutOnTheOP]

Hmm... I'll have to watch more closely next time I'm at Davis Monthan, but every time I've seen A-10s running approaches, they appear to be running straight-in. But then again, it's a dual-use military/civilian airfield, so the FAA may require them to.

[Snoopy]

Hmm... I'll have to watch more closely next time I'm at Davis Monthan, but every time I've seen A-10s running approaches, they appear to be running straight-in. But then again, it's a dual-use military/civilian airfield, so the FAA may require them to.

 

Keep in mind DM is also the main training base for A-10 pilots.

 

All the locations I've been in my A-10 career (Moody, Nellis, Osan) or deployed to (Kuwait) for the most part fly an overhead.

 

if nothing else it would be a nice option when talking to ATC to be directed to (or given the option to) fly an overhead pattern.