Vsync Be DAMNED!!!!

[104th_Crunch]

For years I have complained about stutter in FC2 and DCS to myself and friends. I always thought it was a limitation of the graphics engine. My friends would say they don't have a stutter and I thought I was just more sensitive to it.

Today, for the first time I shut off vsync. I use vsync as the tearing to me is very annoying and I was getting 50+ FPS anyway (still with stutter). Well, wouldn't you know it. The stutters disappeared! Holy crap! In other games/sims I can use vsync, but FC/DCS seems to get affected by it.

 

My questions:

 

1) I have a Gateway LP2407 LCD Monitor. I know it has a slow reponse time, and that introduces shadowing, but will a poor LCD Monitor introduce, or make more apparaent tearing? Can a better monitor (any kind) reduce tearing on a PC?

 

 

2) I know Triple Buffering turned on does not affect Directx games.There was a tool that would allow Triple Buffering on with Directx games. Can't recall the name of it, but I would like to test it to see if it gets rid of the stutters with vsync on.

 

Thanks!

Edited September 15, 2011 by Crunch

[EtherealN]

Hm. I can't say for sure, but what you said there actually struck a memory - I used to get a lot of tearing in DCS:BS, and used VSYNC due to that, but I have since gotten new screens and don't remember any tearing even though VSYNC is off. Haven't really thought about it, and since the whole machine was replaced at the same time I can't say for sure, but that's a worthy thought.

 

I'll see if I can manage to get that old one back for a short stunt and set it up in a duplication setup to see if tearing will happen on one but not the other. Never thought about such a connection.

[Yskonyn]

What would explain the stuttering then?

Isn't that usually a harddisk thing, granted FPS are high?

 

If your FPS can't keep up you also get stuttering, but that's a different kind and the OP claims FPS were not an issue.

So if you turn off vsync, the thing that can happen is more frames are put out than the monitor can display and sometimes a frame is out of sync causing the tearing.

With vsync on it only waits for the buffer so you wont get tearing. How could this cause stuttering?

Not to say that you're wrong, by the way, I am just curious from a technical point of view.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Yskonyn

[104th_Crunch]

Thanks Etherealn, it would be very helpful. I do have the urge to just purchase a new monitor today and see what results I get.

 

Yskonyn, yes it does not make sense. Other games I turn on Vsync, and even though it will limit frames to 60 fps, there is no stutter. I realize that Vsync can negatively affect FPS, but FPS would still be near 60 in FC/DCS yet still there is stutter. Can't explain why. Using Win 7 64, GTX 570, 4 GB RAM, I7 2800K.

[Mustang]

There was a tool that would allow Triple Buffering on with Directx games. Can't recall the name of it, but I would like to test it to see if it gets rid of the stutters with vsync on

 

D3DOverrider http://www.mediafire.com/?p49ue2s715l89fj

[Pilotasso]

On my previous PC VSYNC coupled with tripple buffering gave me no suttering, on my new machine it does. I guess its sensitive to hardware combinations of configurations.

[Kuky]

V-sync can and does introduce stuttering and it will do it for any game that has FPS hovering around the V-sync/refresh rate (60Hz). If the game is constantly running above 60FPS and you turn v-sync on it won't get stuttering but if it's around and bellow it will... be aware though other things can get stuttering also, one of them in graphics drivers, in my case I have ATI External Events utility (part of Catalyst driver package) giving stutters so if I disable it it's gone... and surely there can be other things doing the same also, the trick is to find what's causing it... on general HDD is unlikely to do it as most if not all people these days have enough RAM so HDD Page file is not accessed... not in the way people thingk its used anyway that will cause loading of textures etc into game.

 

You can try also either D3DOverrider provided by Mustang in the link an duse that to enable V-sync, it works better then graphics driver V-sync, and at any time you should not have V-sync enabled in more then 1 application/software/utility as I am sure they conflict (like 2 people trying to do the same thing at the same time), or if you use windowed mode Aero theme will take care of v-sync also and you won't get tearring

 

Oh and, changing monitor will not make any difference in this

[manfrez01]

Do not forget to turn off Vsync and triple buffering too, when using D3DOverrider, this can bring bad consequences.:music_whistling:

For me it gave me better results than using the nvidia driver.

 

good luck.

[104th_Crunch]

Thanks guys! Will do some testing this weekend.

[104th_Crunch]

I can't get D3DOverrider to turn on V-sync. I added simulator.exe to the profile list, turned on Vsync and triple buffer, tried low, medium and high detection levels but no joy. Any ideas?

[104th_Crunch]

I can't get D3DOverrider to turn on V-sync. I added simulator.exe to the profile list, turned on Vsync and triple buffer, tried low, medium and high detection levels but no joy. Any ideas?

 

BIG BUMP

 

It would be excellent to get Vsync working with no stutter. I hoping D3DOverrider will do this, but it won't work. Thanks!

[Kuky]

hm... could it be you need to point to DCS.exe instead (or even just try both) I can't check what I have on my PC as I'm at work.

[104th_Crunch]

Thanks Kuky, but FC2 there is only simulator.exe. I am trying to get that working first before trying DCS.

[Mustang]

Should be very straightforward Crunch, all i do is enable force triple buffer and force vsync and minimise to taskbar, i don't even use a profile.

[Kuky]

Thanks Kuky, but FC2 there is only simulator.exe. I am trying to get that working first before trying DCS.

 

ah sorry, I thought it was for DCS, so yeah, it should be that straight forward, just add simulator.exe to the list and enable v-sync... there should be a sound when D3Doverrider kicks in (there's a little "diing" sound) don't know why it doesn't work for you... also I hope you are not closing the window, it should be minimised and D3DOverrider icon visible in taskbar

[Wolf Rider]

A 60Hz monitor might be required as some LCD monitors out there have HZ of 59.4 ~ 59.7. It might just be me not understanding, but it may be a tad difficult for the Vsync to actually sync to a part frame (eg 0.4)

[104th_Crunch]

A 60Hz monitor might be required as some LCD monitors out there have HZ of 59.4 ~ 59.7. It might just be me not understanding, but it may be a tad difficult for the Vsync to actually sync to a part frame (eg 0.4)

 

Thanks. Must be the issue as my new monitor's refresh rate is under 60Hz. Oh well at least it is a 32" HDTV :)

Edited September 20, 2011 by Crunch

[Lange_666]

A 60Hz monitor might be required as some LCD monitors out there have HZ of 59.4 ~ 59.7. It might just be me not understanding, but it may be a tad difficult for the Vsync to actually sync to a part frame (eg 0.4)

 

Mmm, i doubt that because some sims run fine without any stuttering and some don't. And my monitor is the same on both and has a refreshrate slightly under 60Hz.

[104th_Crunch]

Yes Lange. Just tired with my 19" Monitor that does 60Hz and 75Hz and for some reason D3DOverrider will not turn on Vsync.

[Wolf Rider]

Mmm, i doubt that because some sims run fine without any stuttering and some don't. And my monitor is the same on both and has a refreshrate slightly under 60Hz.

 

 

yes, but how are the FPS situated for the other sims? constantly @ 60fps or higher?(does the other sims have a ingame video option for other than 60Hz say for instance, 59Hz?)

 

For mine, and being the same system, no other changes... under 60Hz (59.4) monitor is replaced with a 60 Hz monitor and no stutter (judder) when @ 60fps, matching the screens refresh rate (from memory, pre series 5 LCD's had judder regardless of fps being @ or lees or over its refresh rate) LCDs will naturally have a bit of stutter going on when the source is less than the LCD's advertised refresh rate.

 

you've got Windows saying 60Hz, the graphics card saying 60Hz, but the monitor itself is only 59.4 ~ 59.7 Hz... you tell us what isn't going to sit right?

Edited September 21, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Lange_666]

I don't know the exact refreshrate of my monitor (to the digit behind the point) but i know if Windows detects it, it show a refreshrate of 59Hz with the option to set it to 60Hz. So i recon my monitors refreshrate is somewhere in between (but that's a rough guess until i find it's thru refreshrate somewhere).

 

Either way, it doesn't matter if i select either 59 or 60Hz, the results are the same for both settings. Anyway, just a thought... they have been releasing videodrivers for what, 20 years now, should a decent videodriver knows his way around this trap by now?

 

Here are bit of my findings regarding Eagle Dynamic sims:

 

Explenation: Smooth for me is when there is a "very" fluid motion and there are no regular hickups or constant stutter, whatever there cause is.

An "occational stutter" due to loading data can occur. But if these occur on a regular bases, i don't call it smooth anymore...

 

Lock On:

- VSync ON through D3DOverrider + FULL SCREEN = smooth, no tearing

 

Lock On FC2:

- VSync OFF + WINDOW MODE (but at full screen res): Smooth, no tearing: FPS don't go higher then monitors refreshrate = 60

- VSync OFF + FULL SCREEN: Smooth, but quite some tearing

- VSync ON (nVidia 275.33 driver) + FULL SCREEN: smooth but quite some tearing and VSync does work (unlike in Black Shark, see below)!!!

- VSync ON through D3DOverrider + FULL SCREEN: Not smooth, some minor stutter, no tearing

 

DCS: Black Shark:

- VSync OFF + WINDOWS MODE (but at full screen resolution): Smooth , no tearing

- VSync OFF + FULL SCREEN: Smooth, but quite some tearing

- VSync ON (nVidia 275.33 driver) + FULL SCREEN: smooth but quite some tearing and VSync does not work, FPS 50% higher then refreshrate!!!

- VSync ON through D3DOverrider (VSync works now!!!) + FULL SCREEN: Not smooth, some minor stutter, no tearing

 

DCS: A-10C:

- VSync ON through DCS:A-10C settings (nVidia is set to application controlled) + FULL SCREEN: smooth, no tearing.

- VSync ON + WINDOWS MODE (nVidia is set to application controlled): smooth, no tearing

- VSync OFF + WINDOWS MODE (at full screen res): Not smooth, constant stutter, tearing, FPS goes higher then MAX FPS set in graphics.cfg file!!!

- VSync ON through D3DOverider FULL SCREEN OR WINDOWS MODE: VSync does not work!!! Not smooth, constant stutter, tearing, FPS goes higher then MAX FPS set in graphics.cfg file!

 

!!! D3DOverrider doesn't work with 64-bit applications !!!

 

A big problem occurs in both nVidia Settings and in D3DOverrider because they see LockOn as a seperate game, LockOn FC2 and Black Shark as one single game (both simulator.exe) in D3DOverrider, Black Shark and A-10C as one single game (DCS: Black Shark) in nVidia settings. This gives throuble if for both sims, the settings needed to get a smooth fluid motion are contradictory. Therefore i use either a setting through nVidia, D3DOverrider or ingame (A-10C) to make a good setup.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Lange_666
D3DOverrider info 64-bit

[104th_Crunch]

Wow Lange. That is quite the analysis. Thanks!

[104th_Crunch]

 

Lock On FC2:

- VSync OFF + WINDOW MODE (but at full screen res): Smooth, no tearing: FPS don't go higher then monitors refreshrate = 60

 

This is the setting to use! I have been told before to use this setting, but thought not to try it cause I had no idea Vsync was causing the stutter. What an ass I have been lol. All these years I had no idea and now I am stutter free and tearing is mostly gone. I am pissed and happy at the same time. Thank you Lange!!!!!!!

 

Why does the tearing mostly go away in window mode and the FPS locked to 60 I wonder?

 

Also, I think your analysis proves that it is for most probably game code related.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Crunch

[Lange_666]

Because (but that's only a guess atm) if you're in Windowed mode, you use your desktop settings and i think this is locked to the overall refesh rate that is selected in Windows and that VSync is automatically activated too (someone with a refreshrate higher then 60Hz should be able to tell).

If i think a bit further down the line, the moment you go full screen, Vsync is turned off by default.

But then i'm just guessing right now, it's not based on fact. It just seems an acceptable explenation atm.

 

Another thing why people go full screen is that it is believed that it gives you that extra edge in FPS. I'm not 100% convinced that this is true.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Lange_666

[Kuky]

Windows 7 Aero theme has v-sync on in windowed mode so you see no tearing