Black Shark 2 harder to trim?

[EtherealN]

Well, there's a lot of placebo happening with the flight models. Also us testers found several changes that was just our imagination when we looked closer to it. :) (For me, BS2 testing gave me the first occurance ever of feeling like I was "fighting the AP" while flying, something a lot of people had been complaining about - but after some closer looks into it I found that it was simply a case of me being rusty with the whirlybird - yet for a while I would have sworn there were radical changes implemented in the AP channels!)

Edited January 13, 2012 by EtherealN

[Luigi Gorgonzola]

See attached track. All takeoffs are with no cyclic input, ground trim (that is, the default). To make the tail touch the ground I have to, on purpose, apply way too little collective, causing a pitchup with the nose leaving the ground, but not enough to get the bird airborne. As it should. Same behaviour is present in BS1.

 

Ah, so I'm too shy with Collective ;) Thanks for the hint, I'll give it a try :)

 

However, this nose up attitude is far from being uncontrollable.

[Irregular programming]

I must do a complete turnabout on this issue. I think EtherealN is right.

 

I had ran the mission Convoy hunt for testing this which in retrospect was a mistake. In that on 1.02 the helicopter will start and hover forward but on 2.0 will fly backwards. I guess it has to do with wind because if you create a mission from scratch the heli will fly the same in both games.

[average_pilot]

Last night I was doing a couple of tracks, one in BS2 and then in BS1, to show how different is the trim at cruising speeds, and it turn out to behave the same! o_O!

So, the mystery is, what visual clues creates the illusion that it is different? Maybe the new rendering of the HUD?

 

What I found, and this time I think I'm right, is that I needed a lot more collective in BS1 to lift up from the ground. I was using the same file mission (a simple one with just the Ka-50), and there was 5 minutes between the take off in BS2 and the take off in BS1 in that same mission, and I really could notice the difference in collective travel. Anyway, the next black shark session will be dedicated to see if I'm wrong again about this or not.

[Yurgon]

I have flown BS2 for no more than two hours or so. Heaving read about all the differences between the two versions that people reported here on the forums, I was surprised how much alike flying the new Black Shark felt. My HOTAS (Thrustmaster Cougar, unmodded) worked right away, all the key bindings appear to be identical between BS1 and BS2.

 

Concerning trimming and the the flight model, it's my impression that there may be some very mild differences that I can't quite put my finger on, but that may well be my imagination. As stated above, I was surprised how little these differences feel (if they are real at all).

 

I didn't setup any curves in BS (either version), they're set in the Cougar profile, so that may have helped to give an identical feeling to the controls.

[EagleEye]

Could re-test it again yesterday evening. Unpluged my TM:Warthog and connected my MSFFB2. It seems that that the "problem" was between me and the controler.:music_whistling::) Have flown BS1 with that FFB2 stick only and BS2 with the Warthog. The behavior in BS2 with the FFB2 is the same like with the Warthog, except the feeling.

I can`t remember that I had to put cyclic forward in BS1 to do a stable hover. My squadron colleague still swear that he doesn`t touch the cyclic when giving collective when going to a hover in BS2 and without hitting the ground with the tail....:huh: So I still don`t know why his Ka-50 behaves different then mine with the same mission, without wind, clean configuration, no trimming and so on...

Though, I leave this as it is for now and enjoy flying BS2.:thumbup:

[Luigi Gorgonzola]

My squadron colleague still swear that he doesn`t touch the cyclic when giving collective when going to a hover in BS2 and without hitting the ground with the tail....:huh:

 

This description by EtherealN is at least one clue in understanding the Sharks lift off behaviour:

 

To make the tail touch the ground I have to, on purpose, apply way too little collective, causing a pitchup with the nose leaving the ground, but not enough to get the bird airborne. As it should.

 

I briefly tested it and found the way I handle Collective does indeed make a difference. Being too gentle with Collective inevitably leads to strong nose-up behaviour, the faster I pull Collective, the less this nose-up behaviour seems to be. however, I don't think it's linear, so raising Collective abruptly would probably result in yet another "strange" behaviour ;)

[EagleEye]

This description by EtherealN is at least one clue in understanding the Sharks lift off behaviour:

I briefly tested it and found the way I handle Collective does indeed make a difference. Being too gentle with Collective inevitably leads to strong nose-up behaviour, the faster I pull Collective, the less this nose-up behaviour seems to be. however, I don't think it's linear, so raising Collective abruptly would probably result in yet another "strange" behaviour ;)

Yes, the MSFFB2 have a tiny lever for the collective/throttle. So it seems that I "pulled" it more then the huge throttle on the TM:Warthog.:)

EDIT: Thanks to all and especially to EtherealN for testing/comparison and explaining.

Edited January 17, 2012 by EagleEye

[Bucic]

I briefly tested it and found the way I handle Collective does indeed make a difference. Being too gentle with Collective inevitably leads to strong nose-up behaviour, the faster I pull Collective, the less this nose-up behaviour seems to be. however, I don't think it's linear, so raising Collective abruptly would probably result in yet another "strange" behaviour ;)

Easy explanation.

Collective increased fast => high helicopter inertia -> enough lift force for lift off before the fuselage tilts backward -> additionally helicopter balances itself forward a bit after neither of landing gear wheels are in contact with the ground (re-trimming still required)

Collective increased slowly => lift force barely sufficient or not sufficient for lift off -> helicopter tilts backward on the rear landing gear wheels

 

No mystery here. Additionally consider the situation right after the front wheel lifts from the ground. You have (helicopter facing left)

    ^
    |
===C=L==G====
       *

 

C - center of mass

L - point off lift force application (main rotor shaft)

G - main landing gear wheels

[leafer]

So yank the collective then? I'll give it a try.

[Bucic]

So yank the collective then? I'll give it a try.

It is only needed if you're unable to develop increase collective + stick forward coordination ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Q-7QQCumNZM#t=56s

BTW, all training videos should have the controls indicator enabled.

 

To smoothly take off vertically without swaying you need circa 15% of forward cyclic movement range. Alternatively you can trim like this:

* press [Ctrl + ENTER] to bring up the control indicator

* tap [cursor forward] once or twice to get you prepared without even touching your joystick or trim button

[KosPilot]

So yank the collective then? I'll give it a try.

 

In real life we wouldn't do that from fear of dynamic rollover.

[Bucic]

In real life we wouldn't do that from fear of dynamic rollover.

To simplify - it's extremely rare to read "yank it!" in any procedures :) Usually smooth is safe, safe is good.

[leafer]

To simplify - it's extremely rare to read "yank it!" in any procedures :) Usually smooth is safe, safe is good.

 

lol

 

EDIT: EtherrealN is right. Too gentle on the collective and you get the nose up attitude. I don't have BS so I can't compare but I'll take his word for it. Case closed?

Edited January 20, 2012 by leafer

[V-O-V]

Hello !!

I have been following few threads,and this one is the one closer to my problem,...i got bs1 since a couples of years,warthog,and only very recently i bought bs2,i am not a good simmer,i just playing up with these very interesting software untill i get in the difficult area and i give up(heheeeeee) but please guys everytime in bs2 i trim the noose goes up and the k50 goes backward,it seams there is no way i can come to a particular positive output.In the contrary using bs1 i have no problem trimming,hovering,etc etc,,i can leave the k50 hovering ,going at the pub,come back and its still there,,in the same spot.....what i am doing wrong with bs2?...i just want to learn to hover the thing,few landings...shot a jeep...and maybe i will unistall it then...hahaahaa thx guys for your knowledge

....forgot to say an important thing,that is annoying me a lot,why every time i trim(pressing the T button) and re-center the stick the k50 goes noose up and really fast backward,,,like if it was a pendulum....very annoying,i know its me,but in bs2 that movement is almost zero...thx guys

Edited February 4, 2012 by V-O-V

[EtherealN]

A track which also displays the control quadrant (Rcontrol-Enter) would be the easiest way to see what you are doing wrong.

 

Also, which trimmer mode are you using?

[V-O-V]

Wow...EthereaIN...FIRSTLY i am very excited talking to you...after all these years seeing your nick on the forum...how are you?....which trimmer mode do i use?....have no idea my friend,i just press T...thats all...how many modes?...lol.

ok.i will organise a track,, from my cockpit you mean?Whats Rcontrol quadrant?) Sorry for my accent and my ignorance,but as i stated before i just playing up with this lovely games

[leafer]

There are two ways to trim depending whether you've checked the trim to center box. I still struggle to understand trim myself and have no idea if the box is checked am I supposed to released the stick to center or not.

[V-O-V]

Ok ...EthereaIN....don`t know if its going to be of any use,but hre it is a quick video...i have no idea why everytime i leve the stick to go in neutral position the k50 goes up and then backwards.....thx leafer for your imput,i did not know there were two ways to use the trimmer,how do i use them?....lol

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fD6F1ipC-E&context=C339e41aADOEgsToPDskJ4kJ_IVGCSres47cWaBMts

 

Thx guys they come to pick me up,going to a party,looking forward hearing from you...bye

Edited February 4, 2012 by V-O-V

[leafer]

There are two ways to trim. First, maneuver to your desire attitude then hit trim, release trim then quickly center the joystick. Second way is you do not need to center the joystick. What I'm unsure of is which way is done with the trim to center box checked.

 

When you say 'they' come to pick me up, I have this mental image of your parents taking you to Chuck E Cheese's for some reason.

[yallu]

Now this ain't a complaint. Just my subjective observations. I have both BS1 and BS2 installed. Just tried them with exactly same joystick config (no curvatures, no deadzone, central trimming mode on, BS2 with FFB off as BS1 doesn't have that option, same Logitech Extreme 3D Pro stick).

 

The trimming and auto-hover in BS1 vs BS2 are completely different. BS1 is almost arcadish easy compared to BS2. Trimming in BS1 feels like natural and you don't even have to think about it. On the other hand, trimming in BS2... I don't know, I can't say it's easy. Same goes for auto-hover. BS1 works like a charm and BS2 doesn't.

 

Like I said, I'm not complaining. Maybe BS2 is more accurate simulation of trimming. But they aren't the same in BS1 and BS2. It's obvious. Something has changed dramatically (not a minor, subtle change). Be that direct change or indirect side-effect of some other change(s). At least for me that is true.

[V-O-V]

Yallu,,,i have to agree with you,it is sad but having both installed(bs1 and bs2)the only thing that comes up to my mind is this:i can`t fly bs2,probably its my limitation in understanding this sim,i simply can`t understand it.Can`t understand why in bs2 the heli wants to go backward,even violently,especially if i let the stick going back in its neutral position(you can see it in the video)....i have no choice but to go back to play BS1 patch 1.2...no choice.

 

Leafer,i am 50 years old,my parents would never come and pick me up to go Chuck E Cheese's ...lol have a good day and thx for the feedback

Edited February 4, 2012 by V-O-V

[EtherealN]

One thing to note in that video is that you were playing around a bit with Hover Control there (Seen through the circle appearing on the HUD). This can cause a lot of oscillations if you were not already in a stable hover.

 

I'll make a track in a sec and upload it. (Just need to convince the cat that she shouldn't sleep on my HOTAS. :D )

[EtherealN]

Slightly long track attached, but I decided to do a couple things in it. The red box on the lower left was brought up with Rcontrol-Enter (that is, the right Control key held while pressing Enter key). It shows flight control input.

 

The first thing to note is that the "centre" of the cyclic is actually aft of the centre of the box. This is because that centre is what is your default ground trim - since the rotor mast is tilted forward compared to the ground attitude of the aircraft, you need a slight cyclic aft input to stay stationary on the ground. However, once you get airborne, this will translate to "aft" since now the rotor disc and not the wheels are what defines the aircraft "horizon". You can also see this tilt through the fact that when I hover, the attitude indicator in the HUD is on +5 degrees - not the centre - and you can see that my cyclic is forward of centre in the control indicator.

 

Another thing I'm doing in that track is demo a couple trimming peculiarities - though excuses for my shoddy flying, there's still a bit of bouncing around when I don't time my stick/pedal-centering right. However, one thing you can see is that I have no specific bouncing in a specific direction - it all depends on which direction i trimmed myself (due to that being where I'll still have the stick slightly off once the 0.3 or 0.5 second timer for centering runs out, I forget which it was). This does, however, largely disappear when I start to instead use very small trim corrections - there is one occassion where I initiate a very deep nose-down attitude to pick up speed, but in physical reality my stick was barely ever deflected at all; I gave it a degree or three forward and just kept pressing the trimmer until I got the attitude I wanted. Minor corrections are still sometimes jerky though, since well, I'm not very good with the Shark. :P

 

When I fly over to the city, I do a wide turn where I click-and-hold the trimmer through the entire maneuver - this causes the trimmer system to be on vacation while I perform my maneuver, and when I get out of it and release it does it's thing again.

 

In Options > Misc I have Centre Position Trim Mode unchecked. If this is checked, it means that after trim button is released, the simulator will ignore all control commands until your physical stick and pedals have been centered. This might solve your problem if your issue is caused by the short delay in the default mode (though I think you just need more practice - do a couple flights trying different ways of handling the trimmer, find something that seems interesting and try it out in different types of maneuvers). You might also be helped by adding some curvature or deadzone to your controllers as well - perhaps this is the difference between your BS1 and BS2? Perhaps you had some of that action going in BS1? (I don't on this BS2 install, but I used to have it in BS1)

 

(And in case you don't know - to watch the track, save this file to C:\Users\XXXX\Saved Games\DCS Black Shark 2\Tracks - assuming you are on Windows 7.)

 

If there's anything that's unclear or that I forgot, or just worded in the most incomprehensible way possible to humanity, I blame my all-nighter habits and will try again. :)

Trimmer.trk

[V-O-V]

OK..OK...OK..OK...OK...OK..OKKKKKKK

 

PROBLEM SOLVED....Thank you ...EthereaIN for your video(good actually) and thank you for the advices...but i rarely play it so i am rusty..but i immagine you want to know how i fixed my problem..well..i gave it another go around 30 minutes and really i could no flight this thing,no way the imput was horrible,all afternoon thinking...WTF? then accidentally with my foot i hit the accellerator of my g25 racing wheel(that is connected as well through a usb... i am a huge IRACING racer) and the heli did the the same spike out of control strange behavior....so......haaaa haaaaa i disco the racing wheel,restarded the pc ,fire the k50....WOW...trim like a charm and hover perfectely....it was my racing wheel that in somehow was conflicting with it...geeeeeee sorry guys......now..how can i use BS2 and iracing without having to unplug and plug the wheel??????

...its 01:00 am...going to bed.....hey ...EthereaIN,,,fantastic video!!!

 

...but then why BS1 was ok then,even with the wheel connected as well as the joy stick.....or was not?????? ahhaahhahahaa i love you guys...goodnight!!

 

YALLU!!!!! unplug that racing wheel....will ya?...ahahahahahaaa

Edited February 4, 2012 by V-O-V