Landing,what am i doing wrong.

[Moa]

... The Stall Warning should not be heard.

 

Also, there's no real point to aerobraking the A-10, and the -1 manual states that the most effective way to slow down is in a 3-point attitude with speedbrakes 100%, and maximum braking. In practice, maximum braking isn't needed unless the RCR is low, or the runway is short.

 

Thanks for the info from the -1 manual.

 

Maybe A-10C is different (I haven't read its -1). Stall warning is a few knots pre-stall, yes? Can't remember now whether it was the F-16 or F-18 -1 manual where you get different types of stall warning depending on how many knots above stall you are. Intermittent warning is a couple of knots off, IIRC. Continuous warning is 1 knot off. In that case if you hear a peep just before weight on wheels you're not doing too bad (better than slamming it down fully laden at 120 kias - but perhaps the Hog's gear is strengthened for such things, I don't know).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Moa

[KLR Rico]

One more thing to check is that your throttle's idle is REALLY idle. I was wondering why my landing roll outs were long, and why I'd start taxiing during start up; then I checked the axis settings and found out I needed to add a bit of deadzone.

[hassata]

Nice vid tailgate. Seems like the Hog may be an easy plane to consistently land well.

[BlueRidgeDx]

Thanks for the info from the -1 manual.

 

Maybe A-10C is different (I haven't read its -1). Stall warning is a few knots pre-stall, yes? Can't remember now whether it was the F-16 or F-18 -1 manual where you get different types of stall warning depending on how many knots above stall you are. Intermittent warning is a couple of knots off, IIRC. Continuous warning is 1 knot off. In that case if you hear a peep just before weight on wheels you're not doing too bad (better than slamming it down fully laden at 120 kias - but perhaps the Hog's gear is strengthened for such things, I don't know).

 

Generally, approach speed is 1.3Vs. Approach speed is 130 knots for a light A-10, so that makes stall speed 100 knots. Touchdown speed for the A-10 is 10 knots less than approach speed, so 120 knots. That puts you 20 knots, or 20% over stall speed at touchdown.

 

I'd have to look up the regulatory requirements, but if my memory serves me correctly, the stall horn (or stick shaker on big airplanes) comes on at 1.03 or 1.05Vs. That's not a lot of wiggle room.

 

In the A-10, if the gear or flaps are down, the stall protection system activates a stick shaker at 1 to 2 cockpit AoA units below the stall, which gives 4-12 knots of margin above stall speed.

 

So as you can see, if you get the stick shaker during landing, you're way too slow.

[Moa]

So, we're talking of a difference between touching down at 120 kias and 112 kias after the flare? I almost never get down to the lower speed on touchdown but when I do it is after a good approach and a well-judged flare and hold off, IMHO.

[BlueRidgeDx]

120 knots is the slowest touchdown speed you should ever see in the A-10, since that's the speed for a 30,000lb airplane. You need to add 2 knots per 1000lb over that weight. Of course, touchdown speed is 10 knots slower than approach speed.

 

Anyway, 12 knots is at the high end of the range; you might only get 4 knots of warning. At the low end of the range, you'd be 26 knots below approach speed, and 16 knots below landing speed.

 

Bottom line is that you should never, ever get slow enough during approach/landing to trigger the stall warning during landing in a jet. Nevah! :)

[FreeFall]

I have landed after jettisoning all my weapons and with almost empty fuel tanks. And I think that then, if you monitor AoA Indexer and -Indicator and match you speed according to them, the approach speed will be considerably slower than 120 knots. Haven't heard any stall warnings though, but according to AoA Indicator, the aircraft was not even close to stalling anyway.

Edited February 16, 2012 by FreeFall

[hassata]

Good to know about not aero-braking, one less thing to do. Also, in addition to full airbarkes, retracting flaps helps marginally.

[genbrien]

Just did a test.

Loaded the ''weapon Training'' mission, with 100% fuel, 6mav, 6 gbu-12, 2 gbu-31, 1 cbu-97, 2 aim-9.

 

Took off, made a 180 degree turn, touched down at 180kt ,at the tire marks, deployed 100% speed brake + full toe brakes.

Stoped just short of the last taxiway.

 

If I was able to land with that plane,I dont know how people do to bust the runways.....:music_whistling::huh:

 

I'm not better than anyone else, I just wanted to show that if I can land a plane that is 10% heavier than MaxTakeOffWeight, at the speed of a B747 doing his rotation than if you bust a runway you don't understand something major loll

Edited February 16, 2012 by genbrien

[Depth]

Pft, you'll want to do it like this.

[159th_Viper]

Depends heavily on the configuration of the airframe at landing too - quick test with 126% gross weight sees her crossing the numbers at 160 knots, floating in to touch at 140 knots (126% Land.trk), whilst a gross weight of 55% sees the airframe safely touching at 90 knots (55% Land.trk).

 

So yeah, touch-down speed may vary, but 160-180 is waaaaay too hot :D

[genbrien]

So yeah, touch-down speed may vary, but 160-180 is waaaaay too hot :D

but very doable :smartass:

 

even if you miss the outer part of 1 wing, you should not overshoot the runway because of the speed

[159th_Viper]

but very doable :smartass:

 

Yeah and I bet you sweated whilst standing on the brakes :D

 

That said, a fun competition would be to see how fast members can set her down and still stop successfully. Good place would be Min'Vody with a runway of approx 4.1km - let's see the bloopers :P

[Dejjvid]

Easy! I'll just do one of my famous VTOL landings. :pilotfly:

[Tailgate]

Nice vid tailgate. Seems like the Hog may be an easy plane to consistently land well.

 

 

Yeah, pretty neat. I'd like to find a vid that shows a landing from the HUD's perspective, that would be helpful.

[BlueRidgeDx]

Depends heavily on the configuration of the airframe at landing too - quick test with 126% gross weight sees her crossing the numbers at 160 knots, floating in to touch at 140 knots ([ATTACH]62792[/ATTACH]), whilst a gross weight of 55% sees the airframe safely touching at 90 knots ([ATTACH]62791[/ATTACH]).

 

So yeah, touch-down speed may vary, but 160-180 is waaaaay too hot :D

 

Yeah, but 90 knots is the stall speed for an A-10 at it's empty weight, which is a condition you'd never see in real life unless you took an empty airplane up and then ran it out of fuel.

 

Besides, ill say one more time, you're not supposed to land a jet at stall speed. This discussion seems to have become "how unrealistically slow can I fly". There are margins built into the approach and landing speeds for a reason.

[159th_Viper]

Yeah, but 90 knots is the stall speed for an A-10 at it's empty weight, which is a condition you'd never see in real life unless you took an empty airplane up and then ran it out of fuel....

 

Aye - in all probability numbers are a wee bitty off In-SIM as I get the horn at about 80 knots in that specific configuration. Besides, realism has nothing to do with my post - merely illustrating the boundaries of the SIM.

[Depth]

Yeah and I bet you sweated whilst standing on the brakes :D

 

That said, a fun competition would be to see how fast members can set her down and still stop successfully. Good place would be Min'Vody with a runway of approx 4.1km - let's see the bloopers :P

 

Two tries, two landings. I was planning on setting it down at 350 knots at the heavy one but the wheels gave too much drag. Gigantic OH SHI- moment at the heavy one :lol:

 

Check out the thread I made earlier, that stuff was nearly impossible. The night landing took me a good 20 tries, would make for a good competition.

280 knots heavy landing.trk

280 knots light landing.trk

[159th_Viper]

. Gigantic OH SHI- moment at the heavy one :lol:

 

Hoo-Haa :D

 

Here's my attempt at your heavy-landing configuration.....Was damned close to mowing the lawn on the other side :megalol:

 

 

Speed Landing MinVody.trk

[Moa]

Please check out pages 142-143 of this book.

 

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=C8ZUBjtLXjEC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&ots=x0EMf8eS3v&dq=stall+on+touchdown#v=onepage

 

I guess I'm just an old timer in non-transport aircraft (was two decades years ago I used to fly regularly), hence my 'old fashioned' view on slowing before touchdown. We used to make relatively steep approaches assuming we'd have power off or battle damage. That references also points out the current technique and training is to land faster, as BlueRidgeDx says. Sweet.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Moa

[Depth]

Hoo-Haa :D

 

Here's my attempt at your heavy-landing configuration.....Was damned close to mowing the lawn on the other side :megalol:

 

Upping the anty a bit with a 400 knot touchdown. Starting to get close to something good, third try I only lost part of the tail.

 

4th ones the charm, I only slightly hammered the landing gear which made them slowly collapse under the weight of the plane, bounce the airplane around like a... bouncing warthog, and sent it dancing around like a burning ballerina. But I survived, damnit!

 

What really cracked me up was after THAT spectacular crash the ground crew witnessed it all and went "Oh crap. Well, get another plane out for him boys!" :megalol:

1st try.trk

2nd try.trk

3rd try.trk

4th try - minor success.trk

[PlainSight]

When i land on the runway i sometimes over shoot the runway by sometimes meters other times by loads.

 

Full air break and i holding down w all the way down the runway, sometimes a stop just in time, Maybe all my breaks are not working or perhaps i need to bind all my breaks to w?.

 

I land around about 160-180 knots with full flaps, i am going in to hot?.

 

Forget the speed! Just keep your eyes on the AOA indexer and flight path marker.

First, you need to fly the correct glideslope. Place the runway threshold and your FPM on 2.5-3 degree below horizon line, halfway between zero and 5 degrees. (I miss F16s 2.5 degree line here) Then just trim your plane to keep the AOA indexer green and increase/decrease the throttle to keep your FPM where you want to land.

 

See here, it's an F16 landing guide, but it works just as good with the A10 or any other jet, for that matter:

http://www.185th.co.uk/files/Training/Assessment/F-16_Landing_Tutorial.pdf

 

there's no AOA bracket in the A10, so you have to watch your AOA indexer instead.

[hassata]

^This way you don't have to worry about adjusting landing speed to different weights, right?

[Lobo_63]

From the Dash-1

 

"Determine minimum final turn / base leg and final approach speed based on intended configuration, gross weight, and cross-wind / gust conditions. See figures 2-4 through 2-7 for pattern and approach airspeeds.

 

In the final turn and on final approach, fly on-speed AOA. but no slower than computed airspeed. This will provide a safeguard against a malfunction in either the AOA system or airspeed indicator. An excessive discrepancy between computed airspeed and AOA indication will also alert the pilot that the flaps are not in the intended position.

 

WARNING

 

• Total reliance on either the AOA system or airspeed computation may result in a reduced stall margin."

 

So it seems it is recommended to use both.

[marvinsannes]

Landing speed.

 

What jet aircraft has the slowest possible landing speed?

 

What is the slowest possible air speed for an A-10 Wart Hog? What's it's stall speed?