Please reduce refueling difficulty.

[PeterP]

Two simple steps for a better handling while refuelling mid air.

 

This is how the "easy AA refuelling " setting looks:

(works with almost every controller!)

 

 

 

Its still a challenge! - but would it be fun otherwise?!:)

Edited March 2, 2012 by PeterP

[Advicepuppy]

I usually end up with my cockpit (or my chest cavity) being injected with fuel. That or I get so damned frustrated that I back up and hack one of the wings off of the damned thing with my GAU-8.

 

 

My wingmen love that :P

[MTFDarkEagle]

That Dutch word doesn't translate well to English :D

True, but you get the point no? ;) :megalol:

[Boberro]

I like the way how it's been done in BMS. In fact I heard BMS makes sensors less sensitive during aerial refueling, but you can catch into engine gas effect which makes your flying much harder - those who refuel in BMS know what I am talking about :D

[213]

ah the rally cry of the next generation of gamers/simmers. "wah, it's too hard, make it easier!"

[PeterP]

I like the way how it's been done in BMS. In fact I heard BMS makes sensors less sensitive during aerial refuelling, but you can catch into engine gas effect which makes your flying much harder - those who refuel in BMS know what I am talking about

 

similar is programmed into DCS-A10...

 

Call in the taker for pre-contact and just open the refuelling latch and pay very special attention to the axis response. - after you have done this. - it's a lot more sensitive to small adjustments now.

_so YoYo & Co already took into account that some of us use have not the needed hardware to do a AAR without help.

 

EDIT:

I'm wrong - There is no change for you -I had this impression because I use a FFB controller >> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1411223#post1411223

Edited March 5, 2012 by PeterP

[Username455]

The only problem with a curve setting that high PeterP (at least for me) is when trying to pull a high G turn, it turns into a stalling nightmare. The stick becomes so sensitive on the outer deflection that the difference between a high g turn and stall is incredibly small. It does make refueling easier though, I agree, but probably best to stick to a curve around 15

[Boberro]

similar is programmed into DCS-A10...

 

Call in the taker for pre-contact and just open the refuelling latch and pay very special attention to the axis response. - after you have done this. - it's a lot more sensitive to small adjustments now.

_so YoYo & Co already took into account that some of us use have not the needed hardware to do a AAR without help.

 

Yeah in BMS it is made as is probably due to same reason... it could be good (I guess so, why not anyway) to have on\off such option - just for test yourself example.

I wish they added also engines gas turbulences as it is done in BMS, where you cannot fly directly behind engines - such big amount of turbulences make you to move somewhere else ^^

Edited March 2, 2012 by Boberro

[PeterP]

The only problem with a curve setting that high PeterP (at least for me) is when trying to pull a high G turn, it turns into a stalling nightmare. The stick becomes so sensitive on the outer deflection that the difference between a high g turn and stall is incredibly small. It does make refueling easier though, I agree, but probably best to stick to a curve around 15

 

you are of course right - everyone have to find his own "right" settings !;)

and more important: you have to get used to it! -and know how the aircraft will react. - - this isn't something that will happen at once... - its more likly to happen overnight while you sleep . and start another sim-session the next day.

 

- training,patience and training again.-

 

The image I have posted is only meant as an example what to do to get more control.

 

I'm right now in the lucky position to have a stick that nearly meets the RL deflections- so I don't experience this problems any more (I can now use a linear curve setting) - a deflection of 3° is about 1,5cm movement for my stick with a 20cm extension from turning center.

 

 

 

 

>>>Two MS FFB2 with Cougar Grip

 

And if you have a greater throw - small adjustments are much more controllable --and you won't overshoot the wished "sweet-spot".

 

I use now a linear curve setting - and have (almost) no problems to refuel ... (but I found out it is nearly impossible to do a complete AAR when you had more than two beers..;) - it still needs a lot of concentration and precision/coordination)

Edited March 2, 2012 by PeterP

[ALDEGA]

open the refuelling latch and pay very special attention to the axis response. - after you have done this. - it's a lot more sensitive to small adjustments now.

_so YoYo & Co already took into account that some of us use have not the needed hardware to do a AAR without help.

Autopilot is disabled when the refuel hatch is opened. Is this what you're referring to?

[PeterP]

no - I'm not talking about AP - the sensitivity is really lowered. - I never use AP to proceed to a pre-contact.

I always had the feeling that something changed - but after building the extended stick (see post above) I really know that the axis response is translated much more smoother into the simulation when going into "pre-contact with opened latch" -something you can barely notice with a normal joystick..

 

 

- And I really think - like said before- ED did this to ensure that all of us will be able to make a AAR - whatever hardware we are using. (... some of us using a hall sensor sick ... some don't...)

^^

this is a guess - but the lowered (higher curve setting) sensitivity is true and really happening - this is something I can really measure. -I just don't know how to visualise it - but I need about 30% more travel around the center to get the plane to response as I'm used to do . . .

..and of course this helps a lot to get your nose to the refuelling boom and hold it there.

Edited March 3, 2012 by PeterP
..;) Im done - no more edits!

[MTFDarkEagle]

no - I'm not talking about AP - the sensitivity is really raised.

Yes this is normal. EAC is disarmed when you open the AAR gate.

[PeterP]

Yes, I know that too :) - but I really have more travel in the stick in "AAR - mode" - this is not a placebo.

 

Yeah in BMS it is made as is probably due to same reason... it could be good (I guess so, why not anyway) to have on\off such option - just for test yourself example.

 

Yeah! - sometimes I wish there wouldn't be a "helper" and I could tell the simulation " ...listen - I have a very long stick that works perfect for me - please leave me alone! -I will manage this without your help! :D" - because it is really iterating sometimes and I have to "rethink" again...

 

EDIT: I think we are just about to derail this thread -

...so my last word is (next EDIT: see--?! I'm a liar I just made a new post down there :P ):

I Have no problems with mid air refuelling. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

Practice!practice! -patience- and than practice again!

 

... and if this isn't sufficient : try changing you axis response settings to a less sensitive values- so you don't overshoot your target always. >>> and get used to it!;) > that means practice again! :P

 

>>> have a look again:

 

Edited March 3, 2012 by PeterP

[MTFDarkEagle]

Do you have the same amount of "more travel" when you manually disable EAC?

[PeterP]

Do you have the same amount of "more travel" when you manually disable EAC?

 

Will do some testing and diagrams to visualise it and open a new thread like this:

"what happens if in AAR mode and what if only disengaging EAC" - probably at Sunday.

- I will give you a note. :)

 

EDIT: I think we are just about to derail this thread -

...so my last word is (next EDIT: see--?! I'm a liar I just made a new post down there ):

I Have no problems with mid air refuelling. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

Practice!practice! -patience- and than practice again!

 

Edited March 3, 2012 by PeterP

[sobek]

similar is programmed into DCS-A10...

 

I cannot confirm that.

 

Guys, 2 pairs of shoes. On the F-16, when the landing gear is lowered or the refuel hatch opened, the FLCS switches into landing gain, that means the handling becomes a little different (i think aileron channel commands a steady FPM instead of commanding 1 g at all times without stick input, but it's been a long time since i read about it, for those who want to know, it's well documented on the BMS site), which BMS does model.

 

The A-10 does not have a FLCS and to the best of my knowledge, can not change the stick gains in flight, so this would fall in the area of urban myths.

[PeterP]

The A-10 does not have a FLCS and to the best of my knowledge, can not change the stick gains in flight, so this would fall in the area of urban myths.

 

Ok - I solved this "myth"

Even if this goes a little off-topic now -I want to show what I'm talking about -and I not (totally) nuts!

It only apply to FFB.

So please forget about all what I have said if you are using a normal spring-loaded stick.

 

I made some test-flights - but this time wit a Saitek aviator joystick. And didn't had a change in the axis/trim response. - everything was as expected. Just a little bump when disabling the EAC.

 

Than I compared it with the FFB- stick again and I noticed that disabling the EAC will change the the trim behaviour a little bit - but noticeable.

It feels like the range for trim is expanded - and I have apply more to get the same result as with EAC on.

And the centre position is also a little moved.

 

Have a close look how the stick moves while switching :

And while we are on it...

How the stick really behaves while trimming:

 

 

 

And when you have a 20cm long extension - you will feel the change four times as big as when you would have no extension. - I hope you get my point.

 

 

And it was my fault to think that this is bound to the AAR - so MTFDarkEagle was right -this behaviour is bound to the EAC.

 

So - if you fly without FFB - you can't experience what I tried to describe.

 

Sorry for the confusion I may have caused .

Edited March 3, 2012 by PeterP

[Tornado_Pilot]

I wouldn't mind making something like an "easy mode" for AAR. Just think, we're missing a lot af tactile inputs that real pilots have. I have seen videos where A10s did AAR and they approached kinda fast, like if they would steer a car in a big enough parking slot.

 

I bet, that the controls in the real A10 are not even close to be linear and also have some nonlinear resistance to it.

 

I have flewn the Tornado in a Full Dome Sim many years ago and from there i know, that the feedback of the "real" thing is waaaayy off the thing we get with a normal Stick. Of course, this is due to construction, so no blame on the normal consumer sticks here.

 

My 2 cents

Greets

Chris

[Frostiken]

I wouldn't mind making something like an "easy mode" for AAR. Just think, we're missing a lot af tactile inputs that real pilots have. I have seen videos where A10s did AAR and they approached kinda fast, like if they would steer a car in a big enough parking slot.

 

I bet, that the controls in the real A10 are not even close to be linear and also have some nonlinear resistance to it.

 

I have flewn the Tornado in a Full Dome Sim many years ago and from there i know, that the feedback of the "real" thing is waaaayy off the thing we get with a normal Stick. Of course, this is due to construction, so no blame on the normal consumer sticks here.

 

My 2 cents

Greets

Chris

 

That combined with the huge range of joysticks and lack of capabilities of many makes me think it's not a terrible idea to have variable levels of assist. What I think many would prefer is a minor assist with about 5% authority over your thrust and controls. Sort of like PAC, where it'll nudge you into place but exceeding the authority limits would still cause you to move around and break away.

 

Getting your airspeed and alignment would be entirely up to you, but once you're in the right position it would help keep you there. If your airspeed is 0.5 kts too high, it might dampen it a bit, so people without ultra-sensitive throttles (or even the luxury of a split throttle) aren't constantly swinging back and forth trying to get their potentiometers to find the sweet spot. If you're rolling just a hair to the left (since, honestly, roll trim is so sensitive it's almost impossible to get right), it'll relax it a bit. Basically, all the ultra-minute maneuvers would no longer become as necessary, but the rest of it would still be entirely up to you.

 

*Shrug* Either way I suspect air refueling for us in the sim is a lot harder in some ways than in real life. You can see videos of A-10s flying in behind the tanker at +20 knots, slam on the airbrakes, snag the boom, and fly perfectly straight and level with nary a shake, all in about five seconds. Even the best air refueling I've seen in-game involves a lot of shaking around and slowly creeping in to place.

 

Some of you may think that air refueling in the sim is easy, and that's fine, but I'd like to see you keep your tune if our next aircraft is an F-16 or F-15 where you cannot even see the refueling receptacle from the seat... methinks things will become even harder.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Frostiken

[badger66]

That sounds like a bloody good idea :)

[PeterP]

 

*Shrug* Either way I suspect air refueling for us in the sim is a lot harder in some ways than in real life. You can see videos of A-10s flying in behind the tanker at +20 knots, slam on the airbrakes, snag the boom, and fly perfectly straight and level with nary a shake, all in about five seconds. Even the best air refueling I've seen in-game involves a lot of shaking around and slowly creeping in to place.

 

Some of you may think that air refueling in the sim is easy, and that's fine, but I'd like to see you keep your tune if our next aircraft is an F-16 or F-15 where you cannot even see the refueling receptacle from the seat... methinks things will become even harder.

 

 

You hit the nail right on the head!

 

And to be honest - I never was able to do a full refuelling with a Cougar/X52 .

I have done my first successfully refuelling (without re-contact) with FFB and the extension.

(and believe me: Damn! How proud I was!!)

 

Without the visual clues of the Ctrl-indicator it is a really tough job to manage it.

And sorry if my postings in this thread sounds like a advertisement for FFB...:P

But with FFB you really have only the half workload - because you don't have to "guess" if you are trimmed right - you instantly feel if you on the right path. - and the extra through of the extensions will increase your precession by a factor of 4.

Edited March 3, 2012 by PeterP

[Mirtma]

Getting your airspeed and alignment would be entirely up to you, but once you're in the right position it would help keep you there. If your airspeed is 0.5 kts too high, it might dampen it a bit, so people without ultra-sensitive throttles (or even the luxury of a split throttle) aren't constantly swinging back and forth trying to get their potentiometers to find the sweet spot. If you're rolling just a hair to the left (since, honestly, roll trim is so sensitive it's almost impossible to get right), it'll relax it a bit. Basically, all the ultra-minute maneuvers would no longer become as necessary, but the rest of it would still be entirely up to you.

 

+1

[sobek]

*Shrug* Either way I suspect air refueling for us in the sim is a lot harder in some ways than in real life. You can see videos of A-10s flying in behind the tanker at +20 knots, slam on the airbrakes, snag the boom, and fly perfectly straight and level with nary a shake, all in about five seconds. Even the best air refueling I've seen in-game involves a lot of shaking around and slowly creeping in to place.

 

Well, i guess it makes a difference if you make a living off of it compared to spending a few hours every odd or so day.

 

Still, i'm actually in favor of an assist even though i'll never use it. If you get enough people lobbying for it, maybe you can make something happen.

[badger66]

Anyone know how to make a poll . Possibily ED may take notice if there are enough people who like the idea .

[Wichid]

I'd be keen for an assist just to make it easier to include AAR in multiplayer missions.