Two Seater Challenge

[Peyoteros]

Maybe it's time? ED wouldn't do it... :( Challenging all talented third party teams. Any one? That would be so cool!

[Spetz]

I'd love a two seater jet to play with.. FSX does it, Battlefield 3 does it.. why not? I'm sure it's been discussed a 1000 times, but still...

[213]

in dcs fidelity, you would be doing the work of two people. i suppose with active pause, that's doable.

 

what will be funny is an uncompromising dcs level complexity sim for awac. and then your pilot body goes to the toilet.

[Mugenjin]

I'd love a two seater jet to play with.. FSX does it, Battlefield 3 does it.. why not? I'm sure it's been discussed a 1000 times, but still...

 

No 2 seat jets in BF3 ;)

[213]

i think he means the super scripted f-18f mission. i did not play it. only watched the movie on youtube. it was very funny.

[Mugenjin]

Although it did look very nice, but all you could do was point n click. It was actually a rail shooter in a jet.

[FLANKERATOR]

That would ROCK in multiplayer...2 brand new V-careers : RIO/WSO ;)

[Spetz]

No 2 seat jets in BF3 ;)

 

True..but if they can do it with a helo in BF3, why not a jet or helo in DCS?

[EtherealN]

Because they also have to make it work well in singleplayer when there is no second human at the controls.

 

And no-one has said ED cannot do it, just that it is "difficult". It may still happen. A couple years ago people would have said the same about the very things ED has already done. :)

[Peyoteros]

I say ED CAN NOT DO IT! Standing by to be proved wrong :P

And no-one has said ED cannot do it

[Panzertard]

Well, we all want two seaters :)

Not sure if I followed the old discussions on the topic, but it's probably a real challenge because you would have to solve:

- All players who fly SP, need to have a backseat AI.

- All players who fly MP may need to allow for human backseater - or AI.

 

And not that the AI should be just a noodle who aim weapons and pulls the trigger.

The integration with the human needs to come along way:

- The AI need to be operating a fully working cockpit (or at least emulate it).

- The AI may not be allowed to do things without prior consent of the pilot.

- The DCS cockpit doesn't have any 'simplified' interface to allow for watching / controlling the backseater. Normally you use Voice for this (in MP for humans - or in real life).

 

Any other obstacles?

 

And how does one go about and solving these?

 

A 3'rd party would not only have to build a cockpit / airframe / FM (standard DCS 3'rd party addon) - but they would also have to make changes to how MP & SP is working, and build a new AI for the task.

 

But of course - we still want dual-seaters! ;)

Edited May 5, 2012 by Panzertard

[Grimes]

Mmm. I'd think something like an Apache would be more difficult than a F-18D in terms of player/AI communication. I say that because an F-18D can fly and probably fight without the input of the 2nd pilot, whereas the 2-pilots in the Apache have very distinct roles to fill and require a certain level of co-operation between them. So it would probably be best to start off with an aircraft that can be flown by a single pilot but has multiple seats which can all be used in MP and then slowly add in the functionality of the other seats for AI.

[Peyoteros]

I'm glad! People started talking about the concept of two seaters! That is a good start. Let's talk about how these are implemented in other games/sims, where two seater are available in single player and multi-player modes.

 

Personally I know two games/sims where two seaters are/were available. Those are: BF2/3 and ARMA I/II. In BF series, two seaters are available only in MP (BF2), or are heavily scripted for single campaign such as one in BF3, which if you ask me "sukcs". Why?

Well, simply because you can not make any choices of your own... You like an animal in the slaughter house, walking to the only one possible end... Which, IMHO, is NOT why we're talking about the two seaters in the first place. Two seater is all about team up (COOP) with mates or someone we don't know for the common cause, where you can talk about the strategies and techniques on to how to achieve the common goal TOGETHER.

The bond between two people, the survival of whom depends on each other.

 

So, back to BF two seaters. In MP you can either be a pilot or the "gunman"... Or both. Yeah, there are some who can do both.

Anyhow, let's talk about the COOP, "two homo sapiens". One as a pilot, another as a gunman. You can't swap places if two players are in the helicopter at one given time. You either can swap on the ground, one at the time, or in the air, if one of the two is KIA or MIA* (*- Happens when one leaves or gets disconnected from the server).

Meanwhile, while both are alive and kicking, everyone of them sticks to the primary functions "pilot carries gunman around the battlefield, gunman engages the enemy". Similar structure applied for fast movers two seaters in BF2 (F-15E, SU-34).

 

Now let's see how two seaters implemented in ARMA series. ARMA approached the two seaters more professionally, they added AI as a second pilot/gunner for the single or multi-player gaming. Nice try, but you don't really want AI to be a pilot Anyhow, AI as the gunner... Well, as soon as the target is spotted by AI, pilot can order AI gunman to engage the target of the choice. Or AI gunman will engage the targets of opportunity if ordered to "Fire". Any vehicles or flyable needs to be "locked" by the pilot prior the the issuing the order for AI gunman to "Engage". ARMA also allow the pilot to override AI gunman and take control of the gunman function while piloting the heli. IMHO, it's effective if using guided weapons only.

 

Now lets talk about what kind of twoseater concept we could use in DCS series. DCS, for some reason, beyond my understanding, focuses mostly on single player campaigns. Me and my mates were always wondering why there is no COOP campaigns, you can't even have your wingman in the same group, so all the waypoints and targets applies to both or all, who are in the same group.

Primary point of two seater for me is to be able to team up with my mate for COOP on LAN, or ONLINE gaming, where you learn to work as a one unit (team) and be effective on the battlefield. So concept here is pretty straight forward. The real question is what the AI copilot should be like in the SP? The way I see it it should be similar to what the wingman is now. Where you can issue the order to scan for the threats, engage them, basic maneuvers over the battlefield etc...

 

What do you think guys?

Edited May 5, 2012 by Peyoteros

[mcfly_98]

Simply skip the AI part.

I would buy a two seater plane that is only full usable in MP.

Flighttraining without a mate in SP should be no problem.

 

my 2 cents.

 

cu...

[Eddie]

Personally I know two games/sims where two seaters are/were available.

 

Jane's F-15E, LB & LB2?

[Peyoteros]

Apparently personally you Eddie know more :)

Jane's F-15E, LB & LB2?

[TurboHog]

Simply skip the AI part.

I would buy a two seater plane that is only full usable in MP.

Flighttraining without a mate in SP should be no problem.

 

my 2 cents.

 

cu...

 

That would be great fun, if an even number of friends is online. And if they have time to fly when you want to... if if if if...

 

What I like about the single seaters is the fact that you can fly whenever you want and if friends happen to be online at the same time you can do a nice co-op mission. In a two-seater, your flight hours depend on your friend and vice versa.

[ikaro]

I dream about those two seater models....

KA-52 and/or L39 Albatros....

 

Maybe some day, dreams can come true.

[Panzertard]

Simply skip the AI part.

I would buy a two seater plane that is only full usable in MP.

Flighttraining without a mate in SP should be no problem.

 

my 2 cents.

 

cu...

 

I'm not sure the sales department would like that, loosing out on the sales for all the SP customers.

Surely someone clever must have some ideas on how to solve it though.

[Grimes]

Heh, now you can have co-op campaigns :D Granted you are still not in the same flight, but its a step in the right direction. Hell I don't even see a reason to have the "player" skill in the sim if client has the exact same function in SP and MP.

 

How an AI co-pilot acts really depends on the aircraft being flown. Generally speaking it ought to inform the player of threats it sees and general aircraft issues, perhaps similar to the "radio assists" option currently in the sim. If the co-pilot has sole control over weapon systems then there needs to be an authorization logic in place to allow the AI to start shooting. A "talk on" system would likely be needed for the AI WSO or a player WSO to command the player/AI pilot into position to take a decent shot. I would think it would be easier to force the player to always be the pilot while an AI takes the WSO/co-pilot role than it would be for the player to be a WSO having to command an AI on how and where to fly to.

 

As you stated, the AI acting as a pilot in ARMA is not exactly the best idea, the same is probably true in DCS. So do you limit the player to a pilot role or allow the player to fill other roles on the aircraft? Again, it depends on the aircraft. At the current state of things, it appears the helicopter AI logic is ALOT better than the fixed wing aircraft, so I'd be more trusting to AI flying a chopper than I would a fighter.

 

I think a good question for the community would be, "what do you want to use a multi-seat aircraft for?" Is it the novelty of being in the same aircraft as your friend? Is it for training purposes, but not exactly proper combat scenarios? Or is it the only option for a specific aircraft you want? For me its abit of all 3. There would be something very cool about flying a Black Hawk or even better an AC-130 around with a friend in the gunner or co-pilot seat. I simply wouldn't care that I had to fly around in a giant circle because everytime my buddy fired off some rounds I'd know I put em in the right spot to shoot. For training, it'd be great to ride along and teach, or to take the controls away from my co-pilot to show how its really done. As for the last one? There are a BUNCH of really cool aircraft that must be operated as a team. Just to name a few: Ah-64, Ka-52, Mi-24, Mi-28, AH-1, EuroCopters, Oh-58.... and then theres the fighter/strike a/c: F-15E, Tornado, Su-34, Su-30, Su-24, or go older school with the F-4 or F-14.... and then the potential novelty stuff: Any heavy bomber (B-52), tankers (awesome boom operator mini game!!!!), AWACs (well, maybe only the airborne controllers...), Mh-60 or other transport aircraft (door gunner fun times), and of course the AC-130.

 

 

I'm not sure the sales department would like that, loosing out on the sales for all the SP customers.

Surely someone clever must have some ideas on how to solve it though.

 

IMO ignoring the AI would only make sense if an aircraft sold had a 2 seater variant that is mostly used for training. For example, ED releases F-18C, they could also make an F-18D for training or human-human shenanigans. Only the F-18C or the front-seat of the D could be used in SP. As I understand it, the front and back seats of the F-18D are identical and for the most part the aircraft is used for training.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Grimes

[Daze]

It would be cool if ED could release DCS: F-18C/D or DCS F-16C/D etc. That way you could play SP without having to worry about the AI making mistakes and play MP with a friend, which would be awesome.

[MemphisBelle]

I'm not sure the sales department would like that, loosing out on the sales for all the SP customers.

Surely someone clever must have some ideas on how to solve it though.

 

I think it dont really makes sense to compare ArmA and BF along with DCS since DCS is way more complex...naaa...what am I talking...lightyears more complex than ArmA and BF together.

 

I used to fly in both games as Pilot and Gunner roles...according to the flying things, it´s actually arcade gaming, no more no less...the only enhancement comes with ArmA2 ACE2 and the huge enhancement to the Game and the thus available new Gunner options. AI pretty often sucks in either the Pilot or Gunnerole, how often have I assigned a target to the gunner AI and he simply did nothings...that´s the curse of AI...its artificial and not human thinking and acting...but what will I say by that....even if it sucks, it is there. So even if the main focus lies on SP rather than MP (what I farly can not understand but that´s another story) so ED should try the step forward and simply create such a twoseater Aircaft. let see what the AI is able to do, or not to do. Such a thing would be highhly welcome in all those Squadrons out there, as many use to have fixed trainingdays and -strategies anyways.

 

If the backseater role is modeled so I think it shouldnt be too much diferent than the singleseat AI controlled Aircrafts which blows your ass away pretty often and quite accurate...so why should such an AI Pilot not be able to handle WSO Stuff?

 

Memphis

[Pikey]

I've already played multiplayer BS1 with someone sitting next to me. ABRIS+ShKval left screen and some Helios instrumentation. Give them the mouse and keyboard.

 

The point is here whatever solution has to cater for single players. My son is 9 and his attention to instrumentation is pretty poor. I'm not sure he's ready to fly yet. I can get 30 mins max out of him before he starts shooting my own troops. If you want to try this with a peer or random person online then you have the whole TopGun problem of everyone wants to be Maverick and no one wants to be Goose.

 

The solutions are:

1. Convincing AI. I don't see this, consider every situation...or at least some...(how did he see that? Why couldn't he do that faster? Why did he lock up the bomber first?)

 

2. A plane where the RIO doesn't really matter hugely at a sim level and you can active pause or switch briefly without losign the pace of combat or add risk.

 

3. A non simulation SIMPLIFICATION, which is what these arcadey type games do and what isn't ED's trademark. I like them, but they arent ED sims.

 

4. Just do it for the nichest, niche market ever. Military might squeeze it. Consumer won't be profitable in the layman's eyes, feel free to disagree but back it up with figures and lets go. I'm like thousands of others, just a single player and I don't multiplay online because of the level of involvement is beyond what i can provide.

 

5. Use single pilot airframes...oh wait... Ka-50, A10, both great multipurpose vehicles.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed at a design level by ED and at much greater depth and I see they went so far for option 5 because lets face it, there are so many interesting single seat airframes, everyone is Maverick, the sim is faithful and there is no requirement for iffy AI.

 

But, to come to the OP, you need to look at all the airframes out there, the roles of twin seats and the design of them and try to squeeze in a combination of options 1 and 2.

 

So lets list some aircraft? Discuss how the non-pilot role can be managed by the pilot as well without becoming impossible to achieve something. There's bound to be something out there. I'm afraid i'm no aviation expert but we are looking for someone to say that the RIO/WO/backseat chap job is pretty easy/boring/uncomplicated, or the idea is doomed.

[Panzertard]

Grimes, Memphis, Pikey - all good reflections.

I'm enjoying the read, don't be afraid to toss out ideas.

I think you made a quite good point with this question, Grimes:

 

I think a good question for the community would be, "what do you want to use a multi-seat aircraft for?" Is it the novelty of being in the same aircraft as your friend? Is it for training purposes, but not exactly proper combat scenarios? Or is it the only option for a specific aircraft you want? For me its abit of all 3.

[sorcer3r]

It would be cool if ED could release DCS: F-18C/D or DCS F-16C/D etc. That way you could play SP without having to worry about the AI making mistakes and play MP with a friend, which would be awesome.

 

+1

 

ED could just copy&paste the pilotpit for the WSO-part (almost).

For SP there is no need for a F-16D/18D.

But for multiplayer it would be a opportunity for great combat/training-missions.

 

there are so many interesting single seat airframes,...

 

AFAIK there is no single seat combat helo left. But IMO AI isnt a big problem. It seems that SP-guys can also live with the Ka-50 wingman AI.

Also for SP there could be a ingame "switch-to-WSO/Pilot" option implemented.

So if AI-WSO does not want to engage targets you can do the part. It would be like an advanced hover/route mode. :joystick: