Inter-squadron Activities?

[WildFire]

Just kind of tossing an idea around in my head. Does anyone besides me think it would be cool if we could have multiple squadrons participating in a single server? Say three squads are invited to participate, then you could have operations within the scope of CA. Each squadron has their own strike package and callsigns and briefings. And anyone qualified within all three(or however many are participating) squads to be a JTAC could be.

 

Tossing this around seems really exciting for a couple reasons:

1) adds a very real feel to the gameplay regarding working with NATO forces where a FAC might have to communicate with English, US, or any other country, say Egypt or French.. Squadrons involved could also be based around the world to reflect this mix of Nato forces.

We'd have to work on the language barrier and such but to me this says "real world ops" considering a citizen never chooses who his allies are, regardless of race, nationality, or language he must work with them.

2) Another reason is the lack of communication. This sounds crazy right. But just stay with me. You get on a server to play with your buddies. 3 or 4 of you are ready to go up. Now it would seem to me to be really cool if you jump in the server and at the base your operating out of there is another squadron who you dont personally know that is also operating there.

You dont really have to talk to them besides taxi, takeoff, landing movements and occasionally whenever your crossing flight paths, or entering the same range or AO. Otherwise they do their thing, you do yours. This also says "real world ops" to me.

 

 

The problems I can foresee:

1)There are servers capable of having 16-20+ clients that I have seen. We may require something better though.

2) A common teamspeak, although this isnt really a problem. Were all pretty friendly around here and I wouldnt imagine anyone would have a problem with opening their ts to another squad or group. The only problem would be if this were a full time thing then both squads would have to come to some kind of agreement on splitting the pricing for a shared ts server.

3) Common language. Although another squadron could typically be from another country the squads involved would have to agree on a common language (sad to say but we already know which one that is) and a common use of brevity and communication guidelines for operations. Snoopy already has this kind of manual and its readily available on the forums I believe. (Give him rep he deserves it).

4) Common JTAC training for anyone wanting to play this position. It must be approved through all participating squads and administered by approved parties within those squads, with some kind of qualification. It must be seriously and formally administered since the operator will be required to communicate effectively and professionally with any flight that enters his airspace.

 

So basically like Hawgsmoke but full time I guess. Any thoughts?

Keep in mind when Hawgsmoke happens it will expect the pilots involved to be very professional and follow procedures. With that being said this is not the kind of thing where a couple pilots can show up drunk, fly around and cause trouble, shoot down tankers and friendlies and expect to be welcome. This idea is more of a highly realistic idea of real operations in a NATO environment where everyone is expected to be at their very best, basically like RL pilots, joint exercises, and RL operations.

 

I think it would be pretty awesome.

[Snoopy]

One of the items I thought about when creating the 476th. Implemention is hard, every squad has different sops, radio comms, etc. but it is still a goal I have to make it happen eventually.

[WildFire]

Well you know Im already with you and Im sure the rest of the 476th is, I just want to see what the rest of the community feels.

 

I know Hawgsmoke once it gets rolling will be a wonderful success and there is already a lot of community wide interest so perhaps this isnt as far away as were hoping.

[Eddie]

Yep, multiple vOrganizations conducting ops together is something I'm very keen on as well, both combat and training.

 

I'm already toying with plans for a red flag type event in the future when we have another airframe or two that allow humans to carry out the majority of roles, and large scale combat missions with multiple sqns taking part.

 

I think it's something the 476th as a whole is very keen to see happen in the future, and based on the interest in vHawgsmoke I'm sure we're not alone.

[july865]

I like the idea, but how about 1 step further. We at the 689th were tossing around the idea of a virtual battle against other squads. With the ability to have human vehicle players, the result would be a "capture the base" type of event.

Say, 50 vehicles per side of any choice

All planes available to fly are also fare game

And gv's are the only way to capture the base or bases.

Ideas???

[Teapot]

.. This idea is more of a highly realistic idea of real operations in a NATO environment where everyone is expected to be at their very best, basically like RL pilots, joint exercises, and RL operations.

 

I think it would be pretty awesome.

 

This is a very cool idea ... rep inbound. Don't forget there is also the opportunity to play non-NATO as well ... especially when we start doing Cold War scenarios!

 

The EDIT - sorry, didn't see july865's post above ... yes to that too.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Teapot

[Krebs20]

You can make cargo planes flyable. Why not just have a trigger to cause the base to capturing when a cargo plane lands. It would be a lot of mission work but a lot of fun.

[Grimes]

Once FC3 is released I'm hoping we are going to see the "Red Flag" exercises that once took place in LockOn make a return. I'm sure the presence of Nevada might provide an extra little push to reform the event. Although I'm not sure if the sim is back to the point where it could support 50+ players.

[Rhinox]

Once FC3 is released I'm hoping we are going to see the "Red Flag" exercises that once took place in LockOn make a return.

There are still similar events going on, i.e. "Georgian Incident" (51st) or "OpFor" (104th) to name a few...

[Snoopy]

You can make cargo planes flyable. Why not just have a trigger to cause the base to capturing when a cargo plane lands. It would be a lot of mission work but a lot of fun.

 

Not a mission I would have the 476th participate in, they may be flyable but not modeled specifically for that ACFT, flight model...nope....cockpit from another ACFT...nope.

 

I want these to be serious, flying a cargo ACFT, unless ED or a 3rd party develops it negative.

 

Once FC3 is released I'm hoping we are going to see the "Red Flag" exercises that once took place in LockOn make a return. I'm sure the presence of Nevada might provide an extra little push to reform the event. Although I'm not sure if the sim is back to the point where it could support 50+ players.

 

That would be great for those that fly FC3. But, many squads won't.

[159th_Viper]

That would be great for those that fly FC3. But, many squads won't.

 

L.O.C.E.R.F. (LockOn Community Exercise Red Flag) is not a Squad-based exercise per se, although the majority of participants were squad-affiliated. Not a requirement though, which lends itself to community-wide participation. Will also not be limited to a specific module.

 

@Grimes - yeah, most definitely on the books when full integration of all modules is achieved with DCS World. Still rates as the best online experience I have ever participated in: I'll never forget me in the Toad with Striker chasing me down in his F-15 in one Red Flag..........:helpsmilie:

 

We'll get there again :)

 

To the newcomers not aware of the War Games, herewith a link to one of the usual screenshot-debriefs:

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=834280#post834280

 

Good Fun!

Edited June 4, 2012 by 159th_Viper

[104th_Maverick]

As someone mentioned we (the 104th) have OPFOR and our brothers at the 51st have G.I

 

These two are very similar to the event that is planned / mentioned however there are key differences.

 

What this sounds like is something more geared towards a Red Flag style event, which is a different set up from both the events mentioned above.

 

Another person mentioned his squad not flying on FC3.

 

We at the 104th are evolving all our training and squadron work around to get ready for FC3.

FC2 will always have a place in our hearts however we intend to hit the ground running as fast as possible with FC3.

 

We like others have set out some very very 'preliminary' plans for a Red Flag style event, once DCS world is fully integrated with FC3, A-10, Black Shark and Combined Arms. A Red Flag event is something the 104 would really like to do in the future further down the line.

 

Or....

 

We would also be very happy to work 'with' the community to help make a Red Flag to remember, in the future.

If there is enough interest from the community and we can all work together like adults.... I think having a 'multi squadron organized Red Flag' would be a seriously good way to get kicking in FC3!!!

 

I want to also say that I 'respectfully' think doing any type of Red Flag event solely in DCS A-10 with no FC3 is a bad idea... I'm not saying anyone has suggested this I just want to point it out.

 

Red Flag as most of you know is about safely escorting a strike package to and from a target area (very simple breakdown of how it works but you get my point)

 

Doing a online Red Flag without real people in FC3 fighter aircraft is not going to be a Red Flag.. it's going to be another bombing exercise with bots.

The whole idea in real life is if the Blue Force can't beat the Red Force in the air.... nothing gets through A2G wise.

 

I agree that a DCS A-10C Red Flag would be 'kind of' cool but I want to add one thing to Boberros's signature.

 

Sure fighter Pilots make films,

And bomber Pilots make the history........

 

But Fighter Pilots (some of us anyway) get you safely to where you need to go to make history... and get back to talk about it! ;)

[Eddie]

Any joint training/combat ops that the 476th organise will be designed to be as realistic as is possible to achieve in DCS at the time, much like vHawgsmoke.

 

It is possible that organisations operating FC3 aircraft could participate (we want multi-airframe operations not A-10C only, we are a multi-squadron/airframe organisation after all), but we'll have to see. I'd want to have flown at least a training sortie with any participant organisations before moving on to a combat sortie so we can be sure they operate in a way compatible with all participants. And any events would be for squads/wings etc only, and not individual participants, the same as vHawgsmoke.

 

Put simply, the 476th vision for these events is maximum realism as with vHawgsmoke. So expect no respawn, no restarts, no missions with a 10 minute flight to the objective, realistic mission objectives for each flight/package (no capture the base/flag/hill or whatever missions) and a mission briefing that involves reading several pages of information and 15 minutes or more in TS just for the package/flight mission briefs.

 

Of course, others are obviously free to organise and run any sort of event they wish, but the above is what I (we) will be working on.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Eddie

[july865]

You can make cargo planes flyable. Why not just have a trigger to cause the base to capturing when a cargo plane lands. It would be a lot of mission work but a lot of fun.

one of the reasons i had suggested to use gv's was that, once a human gv'er gets taken out, they are unable to re-enter the game. hence, gv's are to be considered valuable instead of expendable. and also, i think that you need vehicles to trigger the airbase from red - blue, or visa versa. and no additional triggers needed. the map would be simple. 50 vehicle start here, 50 start there. get from a-b and dont get killed. i believe the only trigger needed is to signify the base/bases capture(d).

there are quite a few great suggestions here. we could entertain ourselves for a long time. goes to show what a great job ED is doing.

edit:

@ eddie

reading your post, you had indicated no base capture, flag, or hill. can you clarify abit?

our proposal is a bit more militaristic in nature. meaning that there is usually a piece of real estate that needs taken. as usual in war time scenarios. but anything thats fun should work.

Edited June 4, 2012 by july865

[Sov13t]

I strongly recommend reviewing at least a few different events that took place in FC and FC2 worlds and requesting briefs/debriefs from various squads that hosted them. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

 

It took years, and lots of failed/rescheduled events to weed out various short comings - which is what I believe some of the more veteran pilots here are saying. I am willing to wager that there are FC2 squadrons out there that are a lot more competent and serious about flying than some that exist within A-10C, especially when it comes to multi-squadron operations where ability of switch flipping means nothing in the grand scheme of things. So it is a bit discouraging to keep reading threads where A-10C pilots come out questioning those who have been around this community much longer and have probably logged far more hours participating in virtual events than they have.

[Eddie]

@ eddie

reading your post, you had indicated no base capture, flag, or hill. can you clarify abit?

our proposal is a bit more militaristic in nature. meaning that there is usually a piece of real estate that needs taken. as usual in war time scenarios. but anything thats fun should work.

 

Yep, it's pretty simple really, any missions we in the 476th organize will be as realistic as DCS allows at the time. The flight/package organisation and the mission planning process will again be as realistic as we can achieve. So in other words, no air quake.

 

It may well be that the overall ground commander's intent for the operation would be to secure a given position (a couple of the scenarios I've outlined involve just that) but as far as the air element goes that is not so relevant. Each flight will have its mission to carry out as described by their ATO frag, and it may require them to perform any of the roles their aircraft is capable of performing from on-call CAS to interdiction to recce to name but three.

 

I (we) are also looking at the viability of having each participating organisation/flight lead plan their own mission based on their ATO frag tasking, rather than having people simply jump in to a mission where everything is done for them. But much of the stuff we're looking at we want to test out internally first to be sure it works in DCS (it seems to so far).

 

Sov13t,

 

I and others are well aware of the events that have taken place within the lock-on community. I personally have been taking part in multi organisation missions as far back as 1999, before lomac was even released, as I'm sure have many others. But the point is what we (the 476th) at least vision is something very different to what has happened within the FC2 community previously, and they are not what we want to see. Were not planning public events, but rather closed private joint operations between a network of v organizations, much that same that has been happening in the Falcon community for well over a decade.

 

As for FC3 involvement, unless and/or until TARS supports FC3 we at least won't be involving it in any events we plan/host. Without TARS our method of working just isn't possible, and many DCS organisations are in the same boat. What that means, for the time being at least, is that any event the 476th arrange will be for organisations operating full DCS standard aircraft only, simply due to the limitations of FC2/3. Of course should things change in the future we'll be all to happy to bring FC organizations and their fighter cover on board.

[GGTharos]

When the time comes we'd be happy to bring our F-15's :)

[Krebs20]

Not a mission I would have the 476th participate in, they may be flyable but not modeled specifically for that ACFT, flight model...nope....cockpit from another ACFT...nope.

Build a mission. They will come. There's a lot of people that don't care about any of what you listed. I promises you if FC2 on the 104th allowed players to control the awcs, it would be used in may ways not currently envisioned.

As a another note. It's easier to make a mission that a player has to fly to an airport than to get AI to do it.

[Spetz]

L.O.C.E.R.F. (LockOn Community Exercise Red Flag) is not a Squad-based exercise per se, although the majority of participants were squad-affiliated. Not a requirement though, which lends itself to community-wide participation. Will also not be limited to a specific module.

 

I really hope LOCERF kicks off again, that was a great time. The first one I was in I flew MiG-25 Foxbat for a recce mission. I managed to avoid all hostile forces deep in enemy territory, "photograph" the enemy base and swing around to RTB, but my computer crashed about 100 nm from home base..That was a tense 45 minute flight at 50 - 100' altitude!!

 

The 2nd one I lasted about 10 minutes before an AIM 120 embedded itself in my tail..

[Grimes]

Eddie, Paul,

 

The funny thing about ultra realistic missions is that they still take place within the confines of a game and when you look at realistic objectives there is almost always a dead on equivalent in a "gaming" sense. Whats maintaining a CAP? One giant game of King of the Hill. Capturing a base/town/objective/hill as suggested by July865.... guess what, gaming and reality are closer than you think. Ok so in a game environment you may have to make some rules to define certain victory conditions or when an objective is completed, but those rules can be custom defined to be as 'gaming' or realistic as you like.

 

 

Red Flag in FC1/2 had no respawns, flights times were quite long, most of them ran with an ATC environment, and from the very first event had TS setup in a manner that operates very similar to TARS. Even though the events were typically open to anyone who wanted to participate, the planning phases for each coalition certainly were not public.

 

The addition of Combined Arms will heavily change the dynamic of multiplayer events. No more are a teams ground forces locked into a pre-defined waypoint or objective. They can be as fluid as player controlled aircraft can be.

 

 

 

i think that you need vehicles to trigger the airbase from red - blue, or visa versa. and no additional triggers needed.

 

You are correct. Airbase ownership is only defined by either ground forces within a certain radius of the base or in the absence of ground forces the default value assigned to the base in the Mission Editors Resource Management page. FARPS on the other hand will always be red or blue.

 

 

@Viper :thumbup: Was Striker's aircraft on fire? I have a distinct recollection that every Red Flag he flew in his aircraft was on fire and he usually landed it at base safely.

[Snoopy]

Eddie, Paul,*

 

The funny thing about ultra realistic missions is that they still take place within the confines of a game and when you look at realistic objectives there is almost always a dead on equivalent in a "gaming" sense. Whats maintaining a CAP?

*

Very true, we aren't naive, we understand the limits of the sim, that this is a game after all. *But the years of military experience we have we try to do our best to incorporate realistic rules, regulations, tactics, etc.

 

I have a ton of ideas, vHawgsmoke was just the first, maybe delayed but when it happens in the fall I think it will be great! *I can't wait to see each individual Squad and their skins in sim.

 

Same goes for the future. *There are two or three organizations I would have the 476th fly with today but the 476th is only two months old, we're still training our trainees on the ways of the 476th. *But I believe it WILL happen!

 

Its not that others are bad, i just don't personally know members in those organizations. *

 

That being said....many people seem to "want" but a few actually "do". *Many complain about this or that but they don't offer to add anything to help the community flourish....if I wasn't so stubborn it could burn me out quickly....

 

When the 476th announces a community ATO if it isn't what you or your organization would enjoy don't participate, but don't "crap" on us for how we enjoy our hobby because as Commander of the 476th, any member of the 476th that disrespects how another organization enjoyed these sims they may not be a member of the 476th for long.

 

The 476th goals, as far as I am concerned are:

 

1. *To use the military knowledge base we have (current USAF A-10 crew chief, A-10 weapons troop, currant and former Royal Air Force members, and a former*Royal Netherlands Air Force) to develop tactics and fly military aircraft realistically to the best of our ability within the limitations of the simulators we fly.

 

2. To "give back" to the community through developing various guides, missions, checklists, etc. *to share what we develop, all based on real tactics, technical data, operating instructions, and other real world military documentation.

 

3. To bring the virtual squadrons, wings, groups, or other virtual organizations in the DCS World *community together by developing and hosting events like vHawgsmoke, vGreen Flag, vRed Flag, etc.

 

4. To create "treaties" with other*virtual squadrons, wings, groups, or other virtual organizations that have the same ideals towards flying in a virtual world. *To train together on occasion, to fly joint combat sorties together, share ideas, tactics, and knowledge with one another.

 

That is how I feel, there is not one single item (besides vSquadron/Group Operating Instructions) that I developed while at the 1st Virtual Fighter Wing/25th Virtual Fighter Squadron or since creating the 476 vFighter Group that I haven't shared with the community. *That's why we have a public downloads section at the 476th, which honestly has more items than any private section.

 

*We as a community need to stop being so secretive and share....Lets work together to enjoy these sims, embrace what is on the horizon. *It not something you're interested in don,t purchase it but let others enjoy it. *not every organization is like that but many seem to be...And now I will step off my soap box :D

[159th_Viper]

@Viper :thumbup: Was Striker's aircraft on fire? I have a distinct recollection that every Red Flag he flew in his aircraft was on fire and he usually landed it at base safely.

 

He might have set it alight with all the fires he caused with missiles he sent my way.........:D

 

Jokes aside, I cannot recall. I do however remember that we were flat on the deck with me frantically calling for support with him close on my tail deep into our territory. He might very well have gotten tagged after he tanked me.

[159th_Viper]

 

*We as a community need to stop being so secretive and share....Lets work together to enjoy these sims, embrace what is on the horizon. *It not something you're interested in don,t purchase it but let others enjoy it. *not every organization is like that but many seem to be...And now I will step off my soap box :D

 

It is before your time, but that is how the Flaming Cliffs community always was. The seperation of the SIMS led to division amongst the Community, said division which will now be rectified with the Inclusion of all modules under a single install.

 

Good times ahead :)

[WildFire]

Yeah I think Eddie only said July's idea was not preferable only because of the idea, not the practice. In theory we dont want just a gigantic furball. Rather we would like squadrons with missions and frags and purpose/objectives. Anyone can furball in a pub, but were looking for so much more, in a world where we all have jobs to do.

 

No disrespect inteneded. I am very happy to hear people in other squadrons interested in this. I dont care if the 476th is running the show or just along for the ride, but you can guarantee that like vHawgsmoke, if the 476th is planning it, than its going to be very heavy in the professional department. Keep in mind that doesnt make us any better or worse than anyone else, its not meant as some kind of token or trophy or bragging right, its simply how we enjoy flying.

[159th_Viper]

....In theory we dont want just a gigantic furball. Rather we would like squadrons with missions and frags and purpose/objectives. Anyone can furball in a pub, but were looking for so much more, in a world where we all have jobs to do....

 

Vast majority, if not all, previous community events have been organised, structured, one-life events: If you are shot down, that's you done for. Do a wee bit of research and you'll be pleasantly surprised. The Red Flag forums are hosted on the 159th site - should give you a good general idea of the scope and complexity of that exercise.