AFM for the F-16C?

[cichlidfan]

Advanced and Simple Flight Model

 

 

From Wags "What is DCS" post.

 

Third parties are provided access to our Standard Flight Model (SFM), which ED can assist to adjust and improve to suit the requirements. Given the extremely complex nature of our Advanced Flight Model (AFM) in DCS we are currently unable to provide a SDK for 3rd party use. However, 3rd parties are also invited to offer their own Flight Models should it prove to be satisfactory.

[NineLine]

From Wags "What is DCS" post.

 

yes, I guess Simple sounds bad :)

[Ali Fish]

am i reading correct here, the majority of addons for DCS will simply be SFM based ? and who proves satisfactory results for a 3rd party FM ?

 

will there be the opportunity for SFM and AFM (3pFM) for an individual module. or is it one or the other. and is there scope for any unofficial FM`s ?

Edited June 12, 2012 by Ali Fish

[NineLine]

am i reading correct here, the majority of addons for DCS will simply be SFM based ? and who proves satisfactory results ?

 

 

They said that the SDK for ED's AFM will not be available to 3rd Party developers, but they could attempt their own AFM and ED would approve I believe... otherwise they would be SFM... least thats how I understood it...

[Ali Fish]

obviously ED should retain their IP in some form so im happy they do this with the FM. And guard it closely from fantasy flight modules for the public. Thus ensuring their own addon abbility and incapability of a 3rd party bettering something so to speak. but i feel all modules for DCS should deliberatly have an SFM and optional 3pFM. this way world can be standardised. but....

 

btw not remebering or being familiar. is it right to suggest that within the construct of any module released that any ingame AI from that module will always be SFM based. so infact my above question is mute and all planes simply have to be SFM based on some level ? hope that makes sense.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Ali Fish

[Tailgate]

I would hope the vetting process will be strict, but with SFM restrictions, it sounds like any 3p aircraft will be like an addon to FC3, rather than a dedicated FM and avionics systems. Even with SFM, hopefully the cockpits will be accurate and fully clickable and functional less the classified stuff.

[GGTharos]

Why does u sing SFM prevent you from using detailed avionics?

[Ali Fish]

im for it too. where we get an AFM or competent 3pFM it will be like the crown jewels of the DCS world. TBh thats all iam interested in and this is very fine. from working for years within the racing sim community, the FACT of the matter that is that 90% of the 3rd party work is below par, 5% is on par and rarely seen the other 5% is above par but well worth the wait and attention. in other terms 90% of what we may see without any strict measures will not be worth it. IMHO ofcourse. i see a guarantedd 10% of 3rdparty work being interesting. with strict measures that percentage will increase.

[NineLine]

Why does u sing SFM prevent you from using detailed avionics?

 

+1

 

Modelling switches and buttons shouldnt be affected by the FM, but I am sure it will be up to the specific developer if they are going to implement 3D click-able cockpits...

[159th_Viper]

....but I am sure it will be up to the specific developer if they are going to implement 3D click-able cockpits...

 

That's a prerequisite that ED expects from 3rd party Devs if one has regard to the announcement.

[NineLine]

That's a prerequisite that ED expects from 3rd party Devs if one has regard to the announcement.

 

If it is going to carry the DCS tag, correct?

[159th_Viper]

If it is going to carry the DCS tag, correct?

 

No, irrespective.

 

If the aircraft plugs into DCS World then there are certain minimum standards applicable. Then again, that is my interpretation of the text and may be incorrect :)

[NineLine]

No, irrespective.

 

If the aircraft plugs into DCS World then there are certain minimum standards applicable. Then again, that is my interpretation of the text and may be incorrect :)

 

I was assuming it wasnt a requirement as the Su-25T lacks these, and I was assume the aircraft for FC3 would be the same, but I could be incorrect :D

[159th_Viper]

Yeah, but then the T-Toad and FC3 aircraft do not relate to third parties so are not really subject to the announcement and attendant requirements.

[NineLine]

Yeah, but then the T-Toad and FC3 aircraft do not relate to third parties so are not really subject to the announcement and attendant requirements.

 

 

Well that was just an assumption on my part, that they would require at least the level of the Toad as a minimum... but you know what they say about assuming :)

[Tailgate]

Why does u sing SFM prevent you from using detailed avionics?

 

I'm referring more to how on board systems effect the FM, such as emergency overrides, like manual slat extensions or decoupling control surfaces due to damage, hydraulics degradation, that sort of thing. Also, if I remember the Su-25T (in FC2) doesn't have a fully clickable cockpit, even with AFM, so I'm hoping that minimum standards apply to DCS vetted 3p models.

[GGTharos]

I think you worry too much about mostly nothing :)

[WRAITH]

Hi this thread its gone off topic a bit but its basically an F-16 FM request discussion.

 

If more than one variant can be made which wouldn't be that hard you have the base and calculations for one F-16 FM and adjust minor differences for others.

 

I'm no coder or dev but once you establish a base it should be fairly smooth and easy to have some variants F-16AM, F-16C, F-16i, F-16CD, F-16CJ or another way to put it is a Block 15 then just a Block 50/52 as an example

 

If F4 Devs can accomplish this certainly DCS can make the dream right, seriously these guys do it full-time and a bigger team than F4 teams.

 

This would be the same for other A/C's like F-4, F-14, F-15, F-18..... SU's..... Migs..... and so on

 

Well its just me thinking out loud anyway.

 

I'm still hoping for the best............................:thumbup:

Edited June 13, 2012 by WRAITH

[Azazel]

Hi this thread its gone off topic a bit but its basically an F-16 FM request discussion.

 

If more than one variant can be made which wouldn't be that hard you have the base and calculations for one F-16 FM and adjust minor differences for others.

 

I'm no coder or dev but once you establish a base it should be fairly smooth and easy to have some variants F-16AM, F-16C, F-16i, F-16CD, F-16CJ or another way to put it is a Block 15 then just a Block 50/52 as an example

 

If F4 Devs can accomplish this certainly DCS can make the dream right, seriously these guys do it full-time and a bigger team than F4 teams.

 

This would be the same for other A/C's like F-4, F-14, F-15, F-18..... SU's..... Migs..... and so on

 

Well its just me thinking out loud anyway.

 

I'm still hoping for the best............................:thumbup:

 

Couldn't agree more. I'm completely of the opinion that if ED or a well respected and well known 3rd party builds an F-16 then "they will come..." To me (and this is just my limited observation) the thing this sim lacks the most is a modern multi-role fighter. The A-10C is great. I love it. But obviously, there are things it cannot do and I think the amount of information out there on the F-16 makes it a good place start for any group that wants to make a go fast jet that can do a variety of missions.

[WRAITH]

Couldn't agree more.

 

I'm completely of the opinion that if ED or a well respected and well known 3rd party builds an F-16 then "they will come..."

 

To me (and this is just my limited observation) the thing this sim lacks the most is a modern multi-role fighter.

 

The A-10C is great. I love it.

 

But obviously, there are things it cannot do and I think the amount of information out there on the F-16 makes it a good place start for any group that wants to make a go fast jet that can do a variety of missions.

 

 

Hi,

 

I read your reply, thanks for your opinion and support I was feeling lonely and ignored here ....... LoL

 

Great to have guys like you, the F-16 is a renown fighter a good long 40 years now serving fighter A-10 is good but its no comparison to the F-16's and beloved F-18's in its many variants and there is plenty of information on both as they are really good for a sim combat experience being both multirole fighters in A-G and A-A specialization thats why I made this thread...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1480778&postcount=19

 

Please respect it and use it for reference and study its not a childish attempt to place videos and get all googly about its a reference as to why its a good model for DCS series along with the F-18 if you guys like I post more videos and info on the F-18's.

 

In real life the F-16 has been tried and tested in real battle and statics prove its a proven multirole fighter.

 

F-16 Read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon

 

F-18 Read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F/A-18_Hornet

 

Now with upgrades to a new F-16V just released this year 2012 its up to par with JSF F-35 and F-22 etc capability as a modern multirole fighter and yet much secrecy on updates and performance made to it.

 

I dont know why people in Combat Sim world dont act on this with a Falcon 4.0 concept which stirs me up passionately more info here

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1475896&postcount=688

 

I'm further encouraging this because its damn good, and DCS would thrive if there was any release news on this, seriously now!

 

We are talking about "Combat Study Simulation" here right!

 

Well I can only hope and trust that someone with talent is reading this and agreeing with us F4 followers and saying damn right it really is a remarkable jet with an awesome F4 concept effort.

 

It will always be the GODFATHER of Combat Sims it just needs a NEW HOME and NEW LOOK for 2012 and beyond ... time to redesign and market F4 again even if its with a different name who cares not into names just the guts of it! :thumbup:

 

Any body listening......

 

Please give us news on this that its in development.......

Edited June 14, 2012 by WRAITH

[mvsgas]

Anyone has a link to this "F-16 information" that is out there?

Here, I will start, here is a link to the Greek Block 50 -1 pilots manual

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26400980/F-16C-D-Flight-Manual

Keep in mind that;

- This is only relative to Greek block 50, circa 2001

- That this manual is incomplete without the GR1F-16CJ-1-1 and GR1F-16CJ-1-2

- This does not cover any of the avionics nor weapons delivery (GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 and GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1-1) nor the plethora of systems if they are looking to model any of them.

For example:

Fuels ( GR1F-16CJ-2-28GS-00-1 ), Landing gear ( GR1F-16CJ-2-32GS-00-1), Starting system and Gearbox ( GR1F-16CJ-2-80GS-00-1), Flight control ( GR1F-16CJ-2-27GS-00-1), Engine ( GR1F-16CJ-2-70GS-00-11), Hydraulics ( GR1F-16CJ-2-29GS-00-1), Air conditioning ( GR1F-16CJ-2-21GS-00-1), communications ( GR1F-16CJ-2-23GS-00-1)

electrical power ( GR1F-16CJ-2-24GS-00-1), Fire protection ( GR1F-16CJ-2-26GS-00-1), Ice protection ( GR1F-16CJ-2-30GS-00-1), etc

And most of those manual would not help with AFM, for that we need weight and balance info (-5-1) DFLCS or FLCS logic (???) aerodynamic information and input from RL pilots.

Or where we suggesting to use youtube and wiki pages as sources?

F-16.net forums would be more qualified, as long as we are ok thrusting the word of stranger in a forums.

Edited June 14, 2012 by mvsgas

[Azazel]

Anyone has a link to this "F-16 information" that is out there?

Here, I will start, here is a link to the Greek Block 50 -1 pilots manual

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26400980/F-16C-D-Flight-Manual

Keep in mind that;

- This is only relative to Greek block 50, circa 2001

- That this manual is incomplete without the GR1F-16CJ-1-1 and GR1F-16CJ-1-2

- This does not cover any of the avionics nor weapons delivery (GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 and GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1-1) nor the plethora of systems if they are looking to model any of them.

For example:

Fuels ( GR1F-16CJ-2-28GS-00-1 ), Landing gear ( GR1F-16CJ-2-32GS-00-1), Starting system and Gearbox ( GR1F-16CJ-2-80GS-00-1), Flight control ( GR1F-16CJ-2-27GS-00-1), Engine ( GR1F-16CJ-2-70GS-00-11), Hydraulics ( GR1F-16CJ-2-29GS-00-1), Air conditioning ( GR1F-16CJ-2-21GS-00-1), communications ( GR1F-16CJ-2-23GS-00-1)

electrical power ( GR1F-16CJ-2-24GS-00-1), Fire protection ( GR1F-16CJ-2-26GS-00-1), Ice protection ( GR1F-16CJ-2-30GS-00-1), etc

And most of those manual would not help with AFM, for that we need weight and balance info (-5-1) DFLCS or FLCS logic (???) aerodynamic information and input from RL pilots.

Or where we suggesting to use youtube and wiki pages as sources?

F-16.net forums would be more qualified, as long as we are ok thrusting the word of stranger in a forums.

 

Ahh! Thanks, this post more or less answers my initial question on "what it takes to create an advanced flight model for the F-16?" My guess is the fellas over at BMS have some of what you've listed. I don't get the feeling they shoot from the hip, but I could be wrong. Thanks.

[WRAITH]

Hi Azazel,

 

Exactly, You know this discussion has been discussed in BMS Forums, and still the BMS Devs manage to have several F-16 variants in different Theaters and F-16A and the Janhas D model is on the way also its development.

 

Just check the Community Mods/WIP Thread its awesome!

 

I just hope DCS does the same thing also with an F-18 for carrier ops and some other nice Jets like the JAS 39 Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, Harrier GR9, Typhoon, Mirage 2000C / III, Tornado, SU-35BM, SU-37 Terminator, B2 Spirit, B1B Lancer etc all the good ones but F-16 is a must.

 

Well time will tell. Right!

 

The F-16D is also in development so its not that it cant be done but some just resist.

 

I'm personally encouraging more combat sims to be produced its time, all this new tech we have these days LCD 3D HD Screens etc awesome good time to get back into combat sims.

 

Just cant stand the niggling typical argumentative types knocking down every ounce of hope and creativity thats put out and voiced to actually better the sims to get more outa of them, to many people get lost in the detail.

 

No wonder people say, "The Devil is in the detail"! LoL

 

Its not that the dream cant be achieved just needs confirmation and a "YES WE CAN ATTITUDE"!

 

Its always going to be a WIP effort like most sims anyway I guess.

 

Time is the essence of things hoped for and where dreams are inspired!

 

Me Still, Hoping for the Best :thumbup:

Edited June 14, 2012 by WRAITH

[Fox One]

mvsgas, from this website http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/ you can buy GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 (weapons delivery flight manual) and GR1F-16CJ-1-1 (performance flight manual).

 

GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1-1 is a classified supplement to GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 and it will never, ever be available. Anyway 99% of the avionics are nicely covered in GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1.

 

GR1F-16CJ-1-2 i'm not sure what it contains but the GR1F-16CJ-1-1 is already fully loaded :D. There are performance diagrams for both GE and P&W engines, also performances with conformal fuel tanks. Sustained turn anvelope diagrams for military/ max AB for any drag indexes. Highly recommended.

[Fox One]

Most people here know that, for example, the simplified hydraulics diagram from the flight manual usually is not gonna be enough for modelling a DCS plane at A-10C level.

 

Also, think about FBW aircraft. ED could have all the pilot manuals they want, those are of little to no help regarding modelling FBW control system. They need to understand the logics of such a flight control system before they could hope to implement an AFM that will calculate for example the aerodynamic forces on any control surfaces, etc.

 

I'm not saying the next DCS plane made by ED couldn't be the F-16, who knows, maybe the have the technical description manuals. But here is a little hint why the next DCS plane is highly likely to be F-18C :D

 

This website http://www.chqsoftware.net/product_info.php?products_id=4469 for 949USD is selling a huge collection of technical manuals for most, if not all the essential systems of the plane. See what I'm talking about: http://www.chqsoftware.net/f18m.pdf