How To Determine Friend or Foe in BS1 or BS2?

[ErichVon]

I was playing on the 159ths unlocked Dedicated server last night in Multiplayer. I was on the FC2 server using the BS1 (1.0.2). The enemy was not designated friend or foe. I was flying in full sim mode. It was towards the end of the exercise. Most of the enemy aircraft had either landed or was finishing mopping up the inner cities' (my side's friendly ground vehicles) as their convoys were advancing well into the interior. I had been shot down in my Ka-50, 4 times, on 4 separate sorties around Waypoint 1. Eerie sound hearing an enemy rocket fly pass and missing.

 

On my 5th outing out I established a hover at about 200 meters on my HUD and was just waiting out the advancing convoys to my position.

 

I am still not very good at combat actions. I found targets of vehicles in a mixed array of friendlies and enemies. My 1st, 3 vollies of the Vikhr missile was at my own tanks, but I did not realize this, 7K out. My missiles did hit, but they did not smoke or explode; I eventually realized my 3 missiles, each fired independently, were hitting a friendly tank. 4th attempt was fired at an enemy vehicle and did smoke and then exploded on one missile shot. I was using the Shkval screen for targeting.

 

LOL! 5th attempt was a friendly and I was booted immediately off the server for about an hour. I could not even gain access to 3 other servers I tried. So I figured I was banned off the servers by some ingrained code the 159th server put on my IP address. Changing my Multiplayer username had no effect. Even turning off my router and letting my ISP select another proxy IP address had no effect. I figured there most likely was a time period to wait out or some problem with my router. I experimented on the Internet and my router worked OK.

 

I do not care to be banned forever in Multiplayer. My team-kills were not acts of deliberate mischief, but just poor judgement on my part.

 

I realize the IFF (CPO) switch on the right side wall panel does not function.

 

BUT, will my targeting HUD tell me if my target is friend or foe?

 

Yes, I am reading the manual. Lots to know.

[ErichVon]

Reply to myself:

 

Actually doing a simple search, inputting: "friend or foe" without the quotation marks brings up a few thread topic titles such as this one:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=42339&highlight=friend+foe

 

in case it does not link:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=42339

 

Actually from my limited reading, so far, the real Ka-50 has the technology, but in the sim, the cockpit, both IFF controls do not function.

 

Someone asked in this thread I have listed, "does any sim out there identify friend or foe?" (paraphrased). Well, my Microprose Gunship sim of the 1980's for my Commodore 64 did.

 

Aside:

(the August 2012 issue of MaximumPC has an article titled, "Commodore Redux" about a replica C64 outside with a modern PC guts inside. It is a building project by Gordon Mah Ung.

How do I load up my old 5.250 diameter floppy disks?)

 

My old C-64 still works! I have no room to set it up unless I remodel my attic. As people tossed perfectly good C-64s and 1541 drives, I have a few spares primarily to cannibalize for parts. There still may be a group or two to Yahoo! Groups dedicated to the C-64.

Edited June 26, 2012 by ErichVon

[martinistripes]

So I figured I was banned off the servers by some ingrained code the 159th server put on my IP address.

 

That's harsh and plain unhelpful. They could've have at least done the gentlemanly thing, ie told you you screwed up, why you screwed up, and to get more practice before coming back.

 

I think as you have probably found, it all boils down to correctly identifying vehicles on the Shkval screen and knowing the mission brief.

[159th_Viper]

That's harsh and plain unhelpful. They could've have at least done the gentlemanly thing, ie told you you screwed up, why you screwed up, and to get more practice before coming back......

 

Servman is automated :music_whistling:

[BIGNEWY]

I would recommend going into the editor with some free time, and check out the vehicles in the encyclopaedia.

 

Brush up on your recognition skills, we live in a shoot'em up culture but the fact is if you can not confirm your target, you should not fire at it.

 

Its all part of the fun and accidents do happen :) fog of war and all that

[GGTharos]

Actually from my limited reading, so far, the real Ka-50 has the technology, but in the sim, the cockpit, both IFF controls do not function.

 

It has an IFF radio - ie. it can respond to an IFF interrogation. It CANNOT identify other aircraft or vehicles as friend of foe.

 

You need to now the positions of own forces in order to prevent such friendly fire incidents.

Edited June 26, 2012 by GGTharos

[HiJack]

Simply show your nose to the closest SAM and watch if it fires at you. :D

Of course this wil now all change with Combined Arms as the SAM may be human controlled :P

(HJ)

[ErichVon]

It has an IFF radio - ie. it can respond to an IFF interrogation. It CANNOT identify other aircraft or vehicles as friend of foe.

 

You need to know the positions of own forces in order to prevent such friendly fire incidents.

 

I agree with your last sentence. That is tough to do when in full sim mode, the particular Multiplayer server setup does not distinguish between red or blue dots as to enemy ground vehicles. I had no luxury as to having a wingman on that particular server setup. The only real way to know is to get fired at 1st and hope to survive the assault.

 

I have the 2009 metal coil ring binder book for BS1. Both the IFF (CPO) power switch (#1) on the right side Wall Panel, it has "no function" (page 6-82 & 6-83), and also the Right Panel, Middle Section, the IFF transponder (#5) control has "no function" (page 6-67 & 6-sixty-eight) If these have no function, then how can they work properly?

 

I thought I had read or watched a training video that stated the targeting HUD had symbols on the screen that let me know if the target was enemy or not. (Page 8-eight, #eight) states HUD Cue Descriptions: "C" designates "Launch authorized ('shoot') cue" . I think I am wrong. But I will review the material again.

 

I do wonder if the real Ka-50 had the same "friend or foe" capabilities to identify a target? I am searching Google.

 

IFF (Wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe

 

I do remember in the 1st Iraq war there was a Discovery Channel video showing an American attack helicopter pilot, flying at night, in hover, trying to get authorization to shoot on a targeted ground vehicle. He actually was trying to get command authorization. They could not determine one way or another. He took the shot anyway. Then found out he killed a friendly, while still in hover.

 

Since I wish to play Multiplayer in FC2, as it is more active with open servers, I play BS1 Ka-50.

 

All I wish to know, is there a device to use, within BS1, to identify friend or foe as the real helicopter has? The answer seems to be no.

 

I must ask, though I may appear mean spirited, if DCS wishes to create a re-creation flight simulator, why do some controllers, switches, knobs, buttons work properly and others do not? This is also true in the current DCS World P-51D in its Beta 2 version as to the other 2 radios not functioning.

 

Thank you guys for the replies.

Edited June 26, 2012 by ErichVon

[ErichVon]

Simply show your nose to the closest SAM and watch if it fires at you. :D

Of course this wil now all change with Combined Arms as the SAM may be human controlled :P

(HJ)

 

Yes, I do that, hence my previous 4 kills---me. I see it coming. I try to get below the hill or down in the trees. Old farts and response/reaction time "do not compute, Will Robinson" LOL!

 

I was hoping for a mixed bag as the WWII flight and gv sim, Aces High does it. Getting in the ground vehicles is much fun.

[GGTharos]

I agree with your last sentence. That is tough to do when in full sim mode, the particular Multiplayer server setup does not distinguish between red or blue dots as to enemy ground vehicles. I had no luxury as to having a wingman on that particular server setup. The only real way to know is to get fired at 1st and hope to survive the assault.

 

That is incorrect. You should not need external sources to help you with your situational awareness. What you need is a detailed briefing and a good look at the map, as well as a plan before you fly.

 

I have the 2009 metal coil ring binder book for BS1. Both the IFF (CPO) power switch (#1) on the right side Wall Panel, it has "no function" (page 6-82 & 6-83), and also the Right Panel, Middle Section, the IFF transponder (#5) control has "no function" (page 6-67 & 6-68). If these have no function, then how can they work properly?

 

There's no point in simulating them since the game always knows if you're red or blue. You'll always appear to be either red or blue to the other guy's sensors correctly, ie. friend of foe.

 

I thought I had read or watched a training video that stated the targeting HUD had symbols on the screen that let me know if the target was enemy or not. (Page 8-8) states HUD Cue Descriptions: "C" designates "Launch authorized ('shoot') cue" . I think I am wrong. But I will review the material again.

 

You're wrong, as least as far the Ka-50 goes. C just means your weapon is in firing parameters in this case. It has nothing to do with IFF, and the Ka-50 has no IFF interrogator, just a transponder.

 

I do wonder if the real Ka-50 had the same "friend or foe" capabilities to identify a target? I am searching Google.

 

No, it did not, and it will not. There is no IFF interrogator, and I don't know if if the Russian ground forces have a datalink like ELRPS, which is something the A-10C can link with and display.

 

I do remember in the 1st Iraq war there was a Discovery Channel video showing an American attack helicopter pilot, flying at night, in hover, trying to get authorization to shoot on a targeted ground vehicle. He actually was trying to get command authorization. They could not determine one way or another. He took the shot anyway. Then found out he killed a friendly, while still in hover.

 

Since I wish to play Multiplayer in FC2, as it is more active with open servers, I play BS1 Ka-50.

 

All I wish to know, is there a device to use, within BS1, to identify friend or foe as the real helicopter has? The answer seems to be no.

 

The answer is no.

 

I must ask, though I may appear mean spirited, if DCS wishes to create a re-creation flight simulator, why do some controllers, switches, knobs, buttons work properly and others do not? This is also true in the current DCS World P-51D in its Beta 2 version as to the other 2 radios not functioning.

 

Thank you guys for the replies.

 

There can be a bunch of reasons for not simulating something:

 

- It isn't practical (you gain nothing out of having it implemented, such is the case with the IFF switch in the Ka-50)

- There's no time/money

- There's no information

[Eddie]

I do wonder if the real Ka-50 had the same "friend or foe" capabilities to identify a target? I am searching Google.

 

No, there is no IFF system that enable air assets to interrogate ground units in operation, although such a system is possible.

 

Even if there were, IFF can not and does not tell you who is friendly and who is hostile. All it can ever do is confirm something is definitely friendly.

 

As GG said, the IFF system in the Ka-50 is a transponder only. It's there so other aircraft (fighters) and air defense systems can interrogate you, not the other way around. There are more aircraft out there that only have IFF transponders and no interrogators than there are that have both.

 

I must ask, though I may appear mean spirited, if DCS wishes to create a re-creation flight simulator, why do some controllers, switches, knobs, buttons work properly and others do not? This is also true in the current DCS World P-51D in its Beta 2 version as to the other 2 radios not functioning.

 

Because the systems are either classified, would have no function/use in the sim or the work/time involved in modeling them is not justified by the benefit of doing so.

 

The only IFF available to any pilot in any aircraft who is engaging ground targets is his own mind and eyes. Read the briefing, understand your mission and the location of hostile and friendly air and ground forces. And study the air and ground assets in the sim so you can identify them by sight, both using the mk.1 (in sim) eyeball and the relevant aircraft sensors. If you're not sure, you don't fire. Simples.

[Erforce]

It has an (IFF) radio - ie. it can respond to an (IFF) interrogation. [...]

Someone (You) need to now the positions of own forces in order to prevent such friendly fire incidents.

 

And suddently i remember one thing :

 

- Sentry 1, Avenger 2-1, Declare !

- Avenger 2, Sentry 1, Contact appears Hostile. ID is Mig 29 Bearing 326, 68 Miles, Angel 25.

 

 

And in DCS both camps have radios and awacs... Contact can be friendly, hostile, or unknown.

what do you think ?

[GGTharos]

I think there needs to be a generic FAC capability :)

[Kite]

yes awacs can declare if friend or foe but i think not from IFF transponder but from radar spike or radar contacts. An RWR i say.

I dont' understand one thing . In the prevoius posts i read that real KA50 has not IFF ? I don't think so. If there is a switch to operate IFF, for sure it will function in reality.

Russian are famous to put in cockpit what is striktly necessary . So if it is there, it will work for sure in reality... mumble mumble.

[Pikey]

IFF was already explained back a page.

 

"Avenger 2, this is Sentry 1, your contact is a bogey!"

 

There...implemented. :)

[Eddie]

yes awacs can declare if friend or foe but i think not from IFF transponder but from radar spike or radar contacts. An RWR i say.

 

AWACS aircraft most certainly do have IFF interrogators. The E-3 dedicates half of its radome to the IFF interrogator antenna.

 

I dont' understand one thing . In the prevoius posts i read that real KA50 has not IFF ? I don't think so. If there is a switch to operate IFF, for sure it will function in reality.

Russian are famous to put in cockpit what is striktly necessary . So if it is there, it will work for sure in reality... mumble mumble.

 

Who said the Ka-50 didn't have IFF? Nobody in this thread that's for sure.

[Kite]

i misunderstand what the meaning of this.

"No, it did not, and it will not. There is no IFF interrogator, and I don't know if if the Russian ground forces have a datalink like ELRPS, which is something the A-10C can link with .."

 

Was meaning in the sim will not have but in real ka50 has iff

 

But is it such a mess to simulate iff transponder? Also in other sim was not implemented.

I remember falcon af, also there was not working.

[Eddie]

But is it such a mess to simulate iff transponder? Also in other sim was not implemented.

I remember falcon af, also there was not working.

 

What's the point in modeling the IFF transponder functions it there is no playable aircraft with an IFF interrogator. In order for IFF to be implemented to a level where having the transponders modeled accurately would be worthwhile there would need to be a LOT of work done in other aspects of the sim such as AI in order for them to be able to use IFF correctly.

[martinistripes]

Who said the Ka-50 didn't have IFF? Nobody in this thread that's for sure.

 

I think Kite is just missing the difference between a transponder and interrogator.

[Erforce]

I remember falcon af, also there was not working.

 

Are you talking about this ?

[Eddie]

Are you talking about this ?

 

That is NCTR, not IFF.

[Kite]

Are you talking about this ?

 

yes i know falcon AF can detect which is the airplane but not friend of foe.

F16 VS F16 you won't know if enemy or not.

[Kite]

I think in falcon was a read back of the radar signal correct? On the basis of how the signl come back to you the system can say if mig 21 or 29 etc etc...

 

just info. what is nctr?

[Eddie]

just info. what is nctr?

 

Non Cooperative Target Recognition. Essentially the RADAR signature of a contact is compared against a database to try and determine the type of aircraft. It is not a gods eye view type system though, as it's only effective within a very narrow set of range and aspect parameters.

[Erforce]

Ok fine, NCTR it is (don't want to re-read the manual again)

 

But when i wanted to take this screenshot (without joystick or anything so technically hard to fly the falcon effectively) i wanted to show you the Radar Bar when trying to IFF a boogey.

in place of MG25 you have an horizontal bar. if it's going left, it's probably not friendly. if it's going right, someone will shout "buddy spike" rather shortly.

Is it another NCTR ? :D

 

Btw it doesn't work for GM/GMT radar. that's why i happily pressing A(wacs) - 2 : Declare ! :)

And if it's a good day, i can even ask him : Request picture. My preferred answer is Picture Clear

 

The thing is in DCS, AI is aware of Red/Blue.

in my mission, at start the F15C says : "tally utility bullseye....."

ok he spotted the russian command vehicle 2000m below him, even if it's an air superiority figher, but hell... if i had this command : "Repeat last you bad robot ! " i would be happy :)

Edited June 28, 2012 by Erforce