Flight Control question

[Topcat357]

Hi all,

 

I am just starting to get into the P51 simulation and I have a question. I have the Thrustmaster Warthog Joystick / Throttle combo with the Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals.

My problem is that it seems extremely easy to spin this plane when doing combat turns. I do realize that this is a simulation, not arcade. Also, I have been flying simulations for a long time (just so you know that I am not coming over from the XBox...lol). I am not a great pilot, but I do understand the basics of how to keep an aircraft from stalling/spinning (usually).

So, my question is this: In a hard turn...I roll and gently pull back on the joystick into the turn. I can not even pull back on the joystick a quarter of the way before losing the aircraft into a spin. I have plenty of speed and am not 'greying out'. I understand that I should not be able to use the full range of the joystick in a simulation, but this just seems a bit much. Roll seems to feel right, but Pitch seems to be a problem for me. Maybe I am just used to a greater range of motion with the joystick in other sims (ROF).

I should say that I really have not used the Prop Pitch control at all. Could this be the problem?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

TC :joystick: :pilotfly:

[pyromaniac4002]

Hey Topcat.

 

Propeller pitch, aside from the forces of the engine revving or decelerating to match a new prop RPM, doesn't have any direct effect on what you're talking about. I'd start out with setting up your pitch, roll, and yaw axes with a good amount of curvature (I use a TM Warthog stick too, and I think mine's set somewhere around 20). It might also help to keep an eye on your bank indicator when you're in a turn and try to keep the ball indicator on the bottom relatively centered. In my experience, that was a bigger issue before 1.2.0 came out and they tweaked the flight controls. Other than that, I don't think you're doing anything particularly wrong, the plane just doesn't react nicely to as much pitch as you've been giving it. Get the curve set up and find the spot where you start to see the cockpit shake a little bit (they added that in 1.2.0 too, and that made a big difference for me), and that's as far as you should pull the stick back.

 

Good luck!

Edited July 22, 2012 by pyromaniac4002

[Topcat357]

Thank you for the reply. I think that is exactly what I needed to know. I will apply the curve that you mentioned. I have been practicing since my post and am getting a bit more used to the P51 'envelope'.

 

I do think applying a curve to the Pitch might give me a better feel for the flying. I will post my findings in case anyone cares...lol

 

TC

[TimmyD]

Remember, if you want to pull harder turns in the stang, you need to drop about 10 degrees of flap or maybe a little more before you make the turn. This should help but the Mustang IRL is a twitchy beast, I beleive it's the laminar flow wing shape that makes this more prevelant.

 

Flaps and watch the speed. ;)

[BudgieSmuggler]

Hi,

 

This is basically because the stick travel is so small compared to the real stick, and there is no direct feedback in the stick/cockpit so you only find out when you are in trouble right at the edge of stall and the whole plane model starts shuddering. It's a little easier with a FFB stick but I find it OK with the TM stick even with full linear curve, you just have to be a little gentle and back off stick pressure as soon as you get buffeting.

 

Just remember if you use a non-linear joystick curve you need to keep it trimmed correctly, it makes it easier to control around the centre of the stick travel but much harder to control around the edges of stick travel. Caveat flyor :)

 

Also it's a really good idea to always fly coordinated (step on the ball) otherwise as soon as you start to stall one wing will drop violently. It's quite noticeable in the P51 and it tends to start rolling and enter a spin very easiler, I assume because a combination of weight distribution (fuel + machine guns in the wings), laminar flow wing, low stability airframe and strong propellor torque.

[Yo-Yo]

The reason could be more than 68% of fuel in ME. CG is aft and the plane pitch stability is low that means that you have very low atick travel per 1G acceleration.

Anyway the best way to keep it on the edge is "silky hands" - watch stall buffeting, keep the ball centered and apply very smooth stick correction.

And I know the best joystick for it... :)

[TimmyD]

Everytime I switch to fuselage tank to drain it, the engine quits.... I restart but it quits again. It seems like there is no fuel in there. I might have to check the fuel lines....lol

[Topcat357]

Lots of good info here...Thank you very much!

 

This:

"This is basically because the stick travel is so small compared to the real stick, and there is no direct feedback in the stick/cockpit so you only find out when you are in trouble right at the edge of stall and the whole plane model starts shuddering."

 

and this: "as soon as you start to stall one wing will drop violently"

 

are great discriptions of what I was experiencing. I am testing with a slight curve for the joystick Pitch. Combined with a bit of practice, I am getting used to the sensitivity of this plane.

 

TC

[aaron886]

Try a curve in the 20-30 range and see where that gets you. Remember a curve will give you fine control with the stick in the center of the range, but it will reduce the fineness of your control at the outer edges of travel.

 

People talk about travel being the major problem with PC flight sim controls but really it's feedback. (Not the crappy kind you'll get from a force-feedback stick.) Changing stick forces that increase linearly from center and have good damping are simply nonexistent on commercially available PC flight controls. If you get a chance to fly an airplane with a real stick, the difference will shock you.

[Teeps]

Remember, if you want to pull harder turns in the stang, you need to drop about 10 degrees of flap or maybe a little more before you make the turn. This should help but the Mustang IRL is a twitchy beast, I beleive it's the laminar flow wing shape that makes this more prevelant.

 

Flaps and watch the speed. ;)

 

I keep seeing this, and fair enough I'm sure it works, but is it something that real pilots would ever have done?

[Mike Busutil]

I am also seeing a problem with the elevator control. I just breath on the stick and it stalls and rolls over on her back... Seem's to be worse in the "instant action" dog fight mission.

[BudgieSmuggler]

People talk about travel being the major problem with PC flight sim controls but really it's feedback. (Not the crappy kind you'll get from a force-feedback stick.) Changing stick forces that increase linearly from center and have good damping are simply nonexistent on commercially available PC flight controls. If you get a chance to fly an airplane with a real stick, the difference will shock you.

 

Having flown a little bit fixed wing and one trial flight in heli, I would say for fixed wing it is definitely a combination of both. A very small movement of TM stick equates to relatively large movement of the control surfaces compared to the long pole stick in a real plane, to paraphrase Yo-Yo you need ultra super silky hands compared to a normal pilot.

 

I think for heli the difficulty is mainly short throw plus incompatible trim mode. In the old heli I flew for trial flight, the stick feedback was not so useful - there was strong vibration through the rotor travel (ie. the stick wanted to rotate in sympathy) but regardless of the force on the stick you have too keep an accurate average position. That is definitely easier with longer stick travel.

 

For what it's worth I tried logitech G940 and it the FFB seems to work pretty well now for DCS P51 and KA-50. The heli compatible trim is a big plus, but the stick itself is a bit loose in the centre (non-FFB region) so you can't really trim hands-off. Oh plus the rudder has a strong centre notch, much stronger than Saitek pedals. Pretty annoying, all you can do is turn the spring strength right down or maybe open it up and "correct" it ..

Edited July 23, 2012 by BudgieSmuggler

[BudgieSmuggler]

I keep seeing this, and fair enough I'm sure it works, but is it something that real pilots would ever have done?

 

You shitting me? Real pilots do whatever it takes !

 

You better believe if they had worked out a way to drop an anchor to turn faster they would have.. In fact I'm pretty sure those redbull air race guys do this, next time look really close for wires when they round those pylons :lol:

[TimmyD]

I have the full box set of History Channel Dogfights DVDs' and a few of the pilots talk about dropping a bit of flap to make a tighter turn hence them calling it 'combat flaps'.....!!!

 

a touch of flaps just increases ones wingspan thus increasing lift. I've read that P51 drivers needed that extra bit while making heavy turn manouvres. (not stalling out or suffer a wing drop)

 

key is remembering flap increase lift they do increase drag a bit. it's a fine balance for a pilot of finding that.

 

I've found it to be helpfull in turn fights with high and low yo yo manouvres and also when coming up on somebodies low six. where I fly straight the same heading, fight the urge not to pull on that stick of mine to get a beat on him, just add a little flap and feel the noise of the plane slowly making it way up without hauling back. also works in a turn fight if you need just that little bit extra.

 

So try and see what works for you and realise every little planes is different.

 

well this should be a very interesting link I suppose. http://www.il2flying.com/content/view/24/0/1/2/

 

now I am a addicted book addict so I read a lot. yet if you are less keen on working through tons of written material. try reading these few pages.

 

I've tested this theory and as a result I came back alive and in one piece while being jumped by two "snappers" who where I'm pretty sure out to kill me.

 

well I hope this helps if not, well I least I tried

[sobek]

The only time where i see flaps being useful is when you are in a slow scissor with an oponent that can go as slow or slower than you, and then only for as long as he doesn't deploy flaps. Anything else is just burning energy that you can use better otherwise, IMHO. Granted, if not overused, it might give you a small edge through surprising your opponent, but then the risk of screwing that up and being left with no energy is very real.

[tusler]

back in the early....very early days of Falcon 4 I use to get in turning fights and dropping the flaps would bring to the inside of my opponents turn circle:thumbup:

[WildBillKelsoe]

Everytime I switch to fuselage tank to drain it, the engine quits.... I restart but it quits again. It seems like there is no fuel in there. I might have to check the fuel lines....lol

 

Tim, aren't we supposed to switch the selector when the emergency booster pumps are engaged? or is that a run-up feat only?

[TimmyD]

Tim, aren't we supposed to switch the selector when the emergency booster pumps are engaged? or is that a run-up feat only?

 

I don't know, maybe that's what I am doing wrong. So I switch off booster pump?

[WildBillKelsoe]

I don't know, maybe that's what I am doing wrong. So I switch off booster pump?

 

No you don't.

Manual P.37/183

The tanks are not interconnected and it is necessary to switch from one tank to the other to maintain balance. The three booster pumps are controlled by a single switch on the front switch panel. Selection between the tanks is performed by turning the booster pump switch to ON, then turning the fuel selector valve to the desired tank.

 

Also, before reading above, check the schematic for fuel system on manual p. 36-37/183

 

you'll note #1 from legends being the booster pump for the 2 main (R/L) and fueslage auxiliary tank. for fuel to start flowing from the tanks selected, it must be on at startup before engine ignition. the fuel then reaches the fuel selector valve which relays fuel to the straine for purification prior to admission to engine, the the fuel is relayed to the fuel shutoff valve, and when that valve is advanced (opened), fuel flows to the engine driven pump which pumps the fuel to the caburetor, which then compresses the fuel and air intake mixture and injects them through the suction gauge (actuated by the vacuum pump for showing the nutrition suction into the engine. the vacuum pump also is responsible for sucking fuel from the meek droppable tanks by the 5 PSI to the engine since they have no booster pumps of their own) and into the intake manifold. the engine cylinders then do their thing with the help of the spark plugs, fuel and air mixture is ignited, displaces the cylinders and on bore and stroke, the displacement (bore x stroke) revolts the hamilton constant speed propeller, then the exhaust is driven out of the intake manifold through the exhaust tubes you see on the nose.

 

 

EDIT: OH SH1T! Sorry OP, I derailed your thread. XXX Terminate XXX

Edited July 31, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe