Pilot view has A10 too low to ground

[tonym]

Does anyone else think that the pilots external view has the A10 sitting too low to the ground. The A10 is a big high aircraft and the ground will look quite a long way down. When taxying etc the runway lights and grass tufts appear far too high in relation to the pilots eyeline.:noexpression:

[cichlidfan]

Does anyone else think that the pilots external view has the A10 sitting too low to the ground. The A10 is a big high aircraft and the ground will look quite a long way down. When taxying etc the runway lights and grass tufts appear far too high in relation to the pilots eyeline.:noexpression:

 

Your eyepoint is inside a scale model. Unless the model is scaled wrong or you are zoomed in a bit, it should be correct.

[ShuRugal]

Your eyepoint is inside a scale model. Unless the model is scaled wrong or you are zoomed in a bit, it should be correct.

 

 

going along with this: the viewport you are seeing the pilot's PoV through only occupies about 1/10 the area a real pilot could see at once (unless you have some crazy-ass surround-monitor system set up). To account for this, you can adjust your FoV wider or narrower, but doing so will mess up the depth perception through the viewport, since you will be cramming up to 120 or so degrees of viewfield into a viewport that only occupies about 30 dregrees of -your- view field.

 

So in short, yes, the pilot eyeline probably does appear to be incorrect, because you're looking through a monocular screen with a restricted FoV.

[Michaelc136]

Does anyone else think that the pilots external view has the A10 sitting too low to the ground. The A10 is a big high aircraft and the ground will look quite a long way down. When taxying etc the runway lights and grass tufts appear far too high in relation to the pilots eyeline.:noexpression:

 

In a game its a different perspective. I remember while I was in flight Simulator X everything seemed very disproportional, But as i notice the camera is in a different scale than the DCS world and the dcs world is a scale of real life

[Tailgate]

I don't know , taxing up next to a a Hummer or refueling truck, it looks about right to me.

[SmokeyTheLung]

The field of view explanation is pretty compelling. I've always felt that the DCS "world" seems a little bit too small, especially the buildings, trees and the landscape (The vehicles have always felt :tomato: right). It's very subtle, but after a few years flying the sim I've noticed it more and more. I have no doubt that the math is right in the sim, but something just "feels" weird

I genrally zoom in a little from the default fov (after that annoying zoom out at mission start) I wonder if that accounts for my perception issue?

[Cali]

I've sat in a A-10 many times, this is something I'll look at the next time I fly it. What I thought was cool was that the seat actually raised and lower (your view rasied and lowered) by pressing the button in the pit.....nice feature!

[Snoopy]

Can't count how many times I've sat in the real pit doing preflts, BPOs, defuels, refuels, gear bangs....the list goes on and one but it is very close to real, of course if looks different because you can see a lot more in the real pit because of peripheral vision.

[Necroscope]

Your FOV in DCS is around 90deg and resolution ~ 1920*1200, in real life it is - almost 180deg and somthing about 8000*6000. So you brain "think" that DCS is down-scaled.

[lobo]

I use the virtual cockpit switch and raise and lower the seat to the desired height.

[Echo38]

It looks correct to me. Bear in mind that the zoom level that yields real-life image sizes varies with your monitor size, and with the distance between your (real) eye and your monitor. So there is no zoom/FoV value for which it will be the real-life size for all users, unless all users use the same monitor size & distance setup. I did a bunch of measurements and mathematics once for another sim, and determined that my real-life image size in that sim was approximately 89% zoomed-in. But that was another sim, and DCS has a very different maximum zoom level, so that 89% value most certainly does not apply here, even for me.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Echo38

[Echo38]

the zoom level that yields real-life image sizes varies with your monitor size, and with the distance between your (real) eye and your monitor. So there is no zoom/FoV value for which it will be the real-life size for all users, unless all users use the same monitor size & distance setup. I did a bunch of measurements and mathematics once for another sim, and determined that my real-life image size in that sim was approximately 89% zoomed-in. But that was another sim, and DCS has a very different maximum zoom level, so that 89% value most certainly does not apply here, even for me.

 

I've received a private message requesting that I explain the method I used for measuring this. My explanation is too long for private message, and perhaps someone else would like to use it as well, so I'm posting it here. It's a clumsy & rambling explanation, but I did the best I could; I make no apologies for it, because I spent an hour writing it out!

 

I hope you have some experience with a real-life manual-focus camera, or at least a lot of experience looking through binoculars while moving about. This helps in understanding what's being simulated--I've known more than a few people who have been unable to understand the concepts of camera zoom and distance no matter how hard I try to explain it to them, and it is indeed a tricky subject.

 

Let's see--for starters, you need to have something in-sim for a reference point. A virtual pilot's head is a good one, because it's fairly constant--most adults have similar head sizes, I think, compared to other things like hands. Place a P-51D with a pilot in it next to your P-51D in the editor, on the ground, and make sure he doesn't move. Place your aircraft wingtip to wingtip with his. Now, you need to look up the P-51D's wingspan, and in the real world, place an object the size of your head at the same distance from your real head as the A.I. pilot's head is from you in the sim.

 

If you don't have the required distance in your computer room (which is likely), you may need to use another reference point, such as the gloved hand on the virtual stick (turning on the graphical pilot), but this can be trickier as the size of gloved hands varies more than the size of adult heads. Again, the method will be the same--place your real gloved hand at the same distance from your real head as the virtual gloved hand is from your virtual head-camera. (A part of the aircraft, such as one of the gauges, is ideal, but only if you know exactly how large it is in real life.)

 

Now, here's the tricky part: get two measuring devices. The first one should be perhaps twelve inches long (exact length doesn't matter for this one, as long as it is the same for both "takes," and as long as it is shorter than the distance between you and your P.C. monitor). The second one should be adjustable, like a measuring tape or a strip of cardboard that you can trim. Now, put one end of the first "stick" between your eyes, touching your face. Now, at the other end of the stick, touching and at a right angle to it, hold up the second stick, rotate your real head (with these "attached" devices) until the second stick is superimposed over your gloved hand (or whatever reference point you're using. Trim the second stick until appears (at this distance) to be as long as your gloved hand. This will not be literally as long as your gloved hand, if your gloved hand is held side by side with the stick.

 

I've probably explained it really poorly up to this point, so let me try to give you a little example to try to show you what I'm doing: on a clear moonlit night, go outside and hold up your hand at arm's length. Close one eye and hold your fingers around the moon as if you're trying to pluck it out of the sky, so that your forefinger and thumb appear to be touching the top and bottom of the moon, respectively. Now, while still holding your arm and fingers in that exact position, at the same distance from your eye, walk to your computer and in any computer game or sim, if the game developers made the virtual moon the same true apparent size in game (in terms of degrees of arc, which are constant regardless of zoom levels and such)--and this is a big "if," because most game/sim developers do not make it the correct size; even DCS has the sun too big (occupying too many degrees of arc), if I remember correctly--but if the developers in any given game made the virtual moon the right true-apparent-size, then keep holding your arm and fingers out, and zoom in in the game until the virtual moon matches the tiny space between your fingers that you measured from the real moon. That'd be, approximately, your real-life zoom level.

 

It's critical that the distance (in this case, an arm's length) from your eye to your measuring device (in this case, your finger and thumb) is the same when looking at the real thing and when looking at the virtual one. If you move your fingers closer to your eye when you're looking at the monitor, it'll be all screwed up.

 

Aside from the aforementioned problem of game developers intentionally making the moon too large so that the average person thinks it looks right (because everything's zoomed out in any game on a PC monitor or normal television screen, making everything tinier than real life), the moon is also not a good reference point because it's so small, so any error you make in the measurement (for example, your fingers shaking) will be a much greater percentage of error than when using a larger object. (Well, larger in apparent size--of course the real moon is huge, but its apparent size at this distance is about the size of a small coin held at arm's length.)

 

Hope you're still following this! It's difficult to explain what's going on here, and in the past, I've had a lot of people who've been unable to understand it because they've lacked experience with manual-focus cameras and telescopes and such.

 

Anyway, so do this with your gloved hands, real and virtual, and hope that they modelled the virtual pilot's gloved hand approximately the same true size as your real one! Once you've got your measuring-devices-which-are-attached-to-your-head superimposed over the real hand image and trimmed to its apparent-size-at-this-distance, point your "head assembly" (your head and the attached sticks) at the computer monitor and at the virtual gloved hand image. Now zoom in the virtual camera in the sim (not at all the same as moving the virtual camera/head forward, a point I've been perplexed to find that many people cannot understand) until the virtual hand appears the same size as your measuring stick which you trimmed to match the same apparent-size-at-given-distance as your real hand.

 

If you did everything right, this should be your real-life zoom level, approximately--there will be a fairly large margin of error, because your real hand may not be the same length in real-inches as the virtual hand is in virtual-inches; the game pilot might be a small guy (compared with the aircraft and the rest of the sim world) and you might be a large guy in real life, or the other way around, and so on. Also, the method itself is crude, because we're dealing with apparent image sizes and not only true image sizes, and so there is a great deal of magnification--which multiplies any tiny errors one makes with the measurements.

 

Well, I hope this explains everything. I realize that this explanation is probably pretty hard to follow, because I suck at explaining things, but I hope it made sense. Lemme know how it works for you.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Echo38

[Echo38]

And in case any of the folks are reading who don't know the difference between virtual camera lens zooming and virtual camera Z-axis movement, but would like to learn, see here:

 

The key commands for moving your virtual camera (I'll abbreviate it as VC) forward and back are: Cockpit Camera Move Forward, and Cockpit Camera Move Back, respectively. The commands for zooming your VC in and out are: Zoom In, and Zoom Out. Note that there are separate commands for doing these things with external cameras; the ones I listed are for the cockpit camera.

 

your original problem appears to be that you were "switching to a high-zoom lens" instead of moving the camera closer. If you're trying to change the pilot's apparent relative image size in the mirror, don't try to do it by zooming out the VC. Instead, do it by moving your VC back.

 

here's a pair of screenshots (old screenshots from Rise of Flight--one of these days I should replace them with DCS screenshots, since DCS is the only sim I fly now) showing the difference between moving your camera closer and zooming in. The two shots were taken at the same time, from the same direction, looking at the same airplane. In the top one, the camera is farther away but has a higher zoom. In the bottom one, the camera is closer but has a lower zoom. Notice that, aside from the different relative sizes of objects in the distance, some objects are obscured behind the aircraft in one shot, but visible in the other; other objects are hidden outside the edge of the shot in one, but visible in the other.

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img851/1314/zoomfov.png

[Necroscope]

Echo38

Thank you very much for your post!

Can we calculate exact FOV for given monitor and distance from screen to eye by the following:

1. placing 2 objects(f.e. Containers) in DCS world with known distance from player's plane and known distance between each other.

2. measure monitor width and distance from screen to eye

3. Make some math to understand the visible distance between objects and create guide from cardboard or measuring tape (like you said in moon example)

4. adjust zoom to fit object on screen to guide cuddled to screen.

 

Point 3 is most troublesome point for me, as far I'm far away from math...

[Necroscope]

Ok, team.

I've finally managed to understand this angles-n-numbers and got the described bellow.

So to set Zoom in game to make things appearance on screen to be closer to reality we can do the following:

1. in ME place 3 objects(Containers or soldiers) with distance C from player's plane and known distance B between each other.

2. measure distance from screen to eye to got A

3. Make some math X = (A*B) / (A+C)

3.a. make guide from cardboard or measuring tape with dots on distance = X

4. adjust zoom in game to fit object on screen to guide cuddled to screen.

 

Should work... :)

 

P.S. You can also take a width of monitor as a guide (X) and calculate B and C then.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Necroscope

[311Gryphon]

I've sat in a A-10 many times, this is something I'll look at the next time I fly it. What I thought was cool was that the seat actually raised and lower (your view rasied and lowered) by pressing the button in the pit.....nice feature!

 

NICE! I didn't know that. I'll have to try it out. I know not everything has a function in the sim but it amazes me how detailed it seems to be anyway (not that I've ever had the chance to sit in a real hog).

 

Thanks.

[311Gryphon]

It looks correct to me. Bear in mind that the zoom level that yields real-life image sizes varies with your monitor size, and with the distance between your (real) eye and your monitor. So there is no zoom/FoV value for which it will be the real-life size for all users, unless all users use the same monitor size & distance setup. I did a bunch of measurements and mathematics once for another sim, and determined that my real-life image size in that sim was approximately 89% zoomed-in. But that was another sim, and DCS has a very different maximum zoom level, so that 89% value most certainly does not apply here, even for me.

 

Very true. It's kind of like trying to calculate the actual magnification of a picture taken through a stereo microscope for instance. A person can calculate it based on what they are looking at on their computer at the moment but the magnification changes if someone else looks at it on their machine based on resolution, image size, etc.

[Echo38]

1. in ME place 3 objects(Containers or soldiers) with distance C from player's plane and known distance B between each other.

2. measure distance from screen to eye to got A

3. Make some math X = (A*B) / (A+C)

3.a. make guide from cardboard or measuring tape with dots on distance = X

4. adjust zoom in game to fit object on screen to guide cuddled to screen.

 

You can also take a width of monitor as a guide (X) and calculate B and C then.

 

I'm actually quite bad at mathematics, so I have no idea how your new method works! But I'll bet that you found a simpler way of finding the "true zoom" than my old method, for those with a modicum of mathematical ability. I can't see, however, how monitor width factors into this--with my method, monitor width made no difference, and I can't think of how it would. Which, of course, doesn't mean it can't--I just can't see it. As I said, not a maths guy, unfortunately. But monitor size doesn't change the zoom level & FoV in the sim (although it does change, of course, the apparent image size at the same zoom & FoV).

Edited May 17, 2013 by Echo38

[PeterP]

First: as others say - the pilot in the A-10 on ground has moved his seat all up to get a better vision of the ground. - this will shift you up from the optimal HUD-view position. And (almost) everything is in the right scale.

 

... and I see that Necroscope didn't slept the last night;):)...

 

To give a better insight about his drawings and numbers and that everything is related to your real-world position to your monitor/projection/whatever - I'm just quoting a conversation of us two that was held in this thread Reworked Cockpit Views with proper Neck :

(BTW: when using this mod you can see by far better outside and to the ground when looking to the left/right without the need to shift your view)

 

(...)

 

 

-Stretched view ? - reads like a too big FOV in conjunction to your (real)head position to your monitor. - this is in your own hands and I'm not responsible for it.

 

BTW: When you put on a 90° FOV in the sim but your monitor in front of you only covers 40° of your real view , the image gets stretched more and more to the sides.

 

This is a optical law - its like looking at a photo - you are watching a projection of a camera that hasn't the same parameters(position/FOV) as your eyes. When you tilt a photo in your hands it also gets distorted...- there isn't much you can do about it.

 

Solution:

 

A) Get a display/projection that covers a greater FOV in front of you

B) Move your head towards the monitor - so it covers your real FOV and it is matching what you have set-up in the sim

C) Get a real-time image warping software that counteracts it - but this will also smaller the usable Pixels/space on your monitor - as you have to 'push the boarders in' to counteract it. - so you end up with a smaller real FOV and a 'fish-bowl' effect - this form of warping is only working satisfying when using spherical/cylindric projections.

 

PeterP

I saw discussion some time ago regarding FOV settings in game vs IRL.

As far as I remember thread died without any results. But in fact now we have settings in game dictated mostly by usability and newcomer-happiness.

Probably it will be interesting for you to create mission+formula which can allow user to set real-life FOV based on alignment of location of objects on screen and calculated FOV based on size of monitor and distance from eye of user.

I can't do this myself as far I'm really bad in math, but can do some testings and data collection if needed. I'm pretty sure you already know all this laws of optic-and-angles.

 

A guide is also in the works and it's only merely purpose is to help the users understand why the things are like they are

(besides explaining how to edit all possible aspects them self an doing things like this

). - as posted here : #92

 

 

But creating a mission that guides you for this will be very disappointing for most of the users - when you have a Monitor that covers only ~40° of your real horizontal FOV (22" in a distance of ~70cm) - you will have to set up DCS also to a horizontal FOV of 40° - Than you will have all elements in real-size, but this is not usable in most cases at all.

 

Edited May 17, 2013 by PeterP

[Echo38]

Very good stuff, PeterP! (Hey, I remember you were the one who showed me how to set my in-sim FoV and stuff, back when I first got DCS.)