AWACS

[Geert Hooghe]

Hi all,

 

Question : is it realistic that AWACS is escorted by, let's say, 2 F-15's in an potential hostile environment.

 

Thnx

[GGTharos]

Or more. In a hostile environment, there will be flights placed 'in the way' of potential incoming bandits. Flying right next to the AWACS is pretty useless.

[Geert Hooghe]

Or more. In a hostile environment, there will be flights placed 'in the way' of potential incoming bandits. Flying right next to the AWACS is pretty useless.

 

Right...i'm thinking more of a CAP of 2 F-15C's on the same route 10 Nm ahead and scanning the area for bandits !!

 

You say : MORE than a 2 ship ?

[GGTharos]

10nm isn't bad - the distance actually depends on the type of threat, and so does the number of aircraft you put on station.

 

If you're expecting MiG-31's for example, you need to cover multiple axii of attack at large distances, and a single 2-ship will probably not be adequate for the job.

 

If you're expecting large numbers of slower bandits, you need more aircraft. If you're expecting a mix, you need more aircraft.

 

The real answer is: It depends.

 

In any case, it's the AWACS scanning for bandits ... the F-15's get their cues from the AWACS long before their radars pick anything up in theory, though they can certainly be doing their own radar work :)

[NineLine]

I didnt think AWACS flew with an escort. But then I am no expert on the subject. I thought tankers did, but not AWACS...

[Geert Hooghe]

10nm isn't bad - the distance actually depends on the type of threat, and so does the number of aircraft you put on station.

 

If you're expecting MiG-31's for example, you need to cover multiple axii of attack at large distances, and a single 2-ship will probably not be adequate for the job.

 

If you're expecting large numbers of slower bandits, you need more aircraft. If you're expecting a mix, you need more aircraft.

 

The real answer is: It depends.

 

In any case, it's the AWACS scanning for bandits ... the F-15's get their cues from the AWACS long before their radars pick anything up in theory, though they can certainly be doing their own radar work :)

 

That's the big issue in a hostile environment : WHAT can you expect ? Maybe not the overkill scenario but then again there are also "alert 5" squadrons that can take of if the hostiles are coming in strong !!

 

Sorry, "alert 5" is something i get from TOP GUN but then again you know what i mean : can't scramble 4 F-15's en a couple of F-16 to protect the AWACS...they can take off pretty quick if there is a real treat that the ship's in the air can't handle (i think)

:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Chances are that your alert aircraft won't be close enough. Again, it depends.

 

And actually you are likely to know what you can expect ... OOBs tend to be known, so you know what types of aircraft and how many are available to sortie from a given airfield; you can plan allocation of forces accordingly.

 

That's the big issue in a hostile environment : WHAT can you expect ? Maybe not the overkill scenario but then again there are also "alert 5" squadrons that can take of if the hostiles are coming in strong !!

 

Sorry, "alert 5" is something i get from TOP GUN but then again you know what i mean : can't scramble 4 F-15's en a couple of F-16 to protect the AWACS...they can take off pretty quick if there is a real treat that the ship's in the air can't handle (i think)

:thumbup:

[Geert Hooghe]

Chances are that your alert aircraft won't be close enough. Again, it depends.

 

And actually you are likely to know what you can expect ... OOBs tend to be known, so you know what types of aircraft and how many are available to sortie from a given airfield; you can plan allocation of forces accordingly.

 

Allocation : is it correct that normally IRL the more expensive assets (F-15, F-16, F-117, etc) are normally placed in the rear of the theatre (in this sim not on airfields close to the border with Russia) to avoid being destroyed ?

Edited September 25, 2012 by Geert Hooghe

[NineLine]

Isnt their range far enough that chances they would be placed well away from any air threats, or at least far enough away that they would see badies coming from far away enough that you could scramble aircraft?

 

Dont know if this is accurate:

 

flying at 30,000 feet (9,100 m) can cover an area of 120,460 square miles (312,000 km2)

[GGTharos]

Again, it depends. Detection ranges vary based on target RCS, relative altitude and aspect. I could see the AWACS operating as close as 50km to the front line, depending on the type of threats. Your altert 5 aircraft might be 50km behind the AWACS. In that case, they might not get to in in time.

 

Again, it all depends.

[Geert Hooghe]

Again, it depends. Detection ranges vary based on target RCS, relative altitude and aspect. I could see the AWACS operating as close as 50km to the front line, depending on the type of threats. Your altert 5 aircraft might be 50km behind the AWACS. In that case, they might not get to in in time.

 

Again, it all depends.

 

OK, thnx !:thumbup: Somewhat wiser in that matter...will use triggers and conditions to counter the random generated flying hostiles !!

[NineLine]

Again, it depends. Detection ranges vary based on target RCS, relative altitude and aspect. I could see the AWACS operating as close as 50km to the front line, depending on the type of threats. Your altert 5 aircraft might be 50km behind the AWACS. In that case, they might not get to in in time.

 

Again, it all depends.

 

In that case maybe an escort would be something that would be required, maybe not an escort but someone operating close enough to assist if required...

 

Maybe a test mission is required... put up an AWACS, put a flight of F-15s nearby and put a flight of Migs on an intercept course and see how the sim reacts :)

[GGTharos]

Sounds like fun :)

[Geert Hooghe]

In that case maybe an escort would be something that would be required, maybe not an escort but someone operating close enough to assist if required...

 

Maybe a test mission is required... put up an AWACS, put a flight of F-15s nearby and put a flight of Migs on an intercept course and see how the sim reacts :)

 

Done that...they are destroyed by the F-15C...but in this case they were 2 SU-31 (? not sure about the number) reconnaisance aircraft...so maybe an easy kill...will try with 2 Mig-29's and see what happens !

Edited September 25, 2012 by Geert Hooghe

[USAFMTL]

Coming from the AWACs world (I was with the 552nd ACW from 2006-2008), escorts depend on the threat environment. That is how they determine if they need escort or not.

[Geert Hooghe]

Coming from the AWACs world (I was with the 552nd ACW from 2006-2008), escorts depend on the threat environment. That is how they determine if they need escort or not.

 

So the crew knows all that before they are in the air ? In DCS-10 insurgents won't be flying but the Russians will so the treats can be really hard if they send a 4 ship MIG-29. If such a treat is really known before take-off, i doubt the AWACS will start engines and go up out there !

 

But I recognise your expertise !!:thumbup:

[USAFMTL]

Yes the crew will be pre-briefed. Also if the A/C determines that his aircraft may become a target, he can request escort even before they take off. For DCS AO being really small, unless the AWACS is flying with really good SAM protection near it, I would put a 2 to 4 ship as escort. Put 2, 25 to 35 miles away in a counter race track pattern (in other words opposite of the pattern the AWACS is doing) and the other 2 at 100 miles. These 2 will be placed between the AWACS and the FEBA.

[3instein]

Just a quick little question to you experienced folks,

 

I assume these larger birds would carry defensive countermeasures but do any of these planes talked about or other large birds have ejection seats?

Thanks in advance,

Mick.

[USAFMTL]

None on the E-3A/B/C

[159th_Viper]

Might get tricky ejecting with an incoming saucer behind you.

[cichlidfan]

Might get tricky ejecting with an incoming saucer behind you.

 

The folks whose seats aren't in the cockpit might not be all that thrilled with the pilots leaving either.

[slowhand]

LOL you would think...:megalol:

[3instein]

Cheers for the quick info guys,even with the smell of sarcasm. ;)

What about others,tankers, Hercules stuff like that.

Thanks. :)

[USAFMTL]

Not in tankers or C-130's either.

[Eddie]

Ejection seats in heavies are very much the exception, not the rule. There have been, and are a few large aircraft (heavy bombers) that have ejection seats for one or more crew members, but transports and other support aircraft don't.

 

The same goes for countermeasures, while there are exceptions, many support aircraft (AWACS, Tankers and the like) are not equipped with consumable countermeasures. Although some do have electronic countermeasures (RADAR ECM and/or DIRCM, AIRCM etc). The only large aircraft with consumable countermeasures are tactical transports (C-130, C-17 and similar), and then it's only flare.

 

Essentially, high value assets such as AWACS and Tankers are kept well out of harms way, and are normally the most heavily protected aircraft in the skies. A major tasking, and training focus, for fighter crews has always been HVACAP. But as others have covered, provision of such fighter protection, as with just about everything, depends on so many factors there is no single answer.