How to detect and counter an incoming IR SAM?

[SNAFU]

Or the A-10 jockey just calls "Magnum" in the clean and see all search radars being shut down... ;)

[GGTharos]

I know, it's awful :P

 

Took a necro to show off my ignorance from 14 months ago. :megalol:

[WildBillKelsoe]

study your target area very well.. if missile is shot without bandits closer to fence point it is likely tank SAMs exchanging gestures.. If its shot closer to IP then its likely MANPADS. The short, ugly answer is you can't detect an IR missile launch. The solution to this is to be unpredictable. I usually flip my plane upside down when a launch is heard and I check below me and behind, but I'm also alot experienced than when I first started on A-10C 2 years ago..

 

One golden standard rule, is to NEVER overfly target area. Sometimes JTAC (AI) will give suicidal attack headings and/or weapons. I remember getting shot head-on by S6 for he requested a 97 on a 3 tanks in 14-2. I had 3 mavericks and parked my AI wingman near Fence in point. :thumbup:

 

totally ignore the bastard unless he's in danger close...

 

 

Another golden rule is fly higher than ground SAM's ceiling. This way you know that SAM's launched are airborne as your MWS detection has a cone and this cone is now higher (theoretically) than ground..

 

 

Georgia has alot of elevations that you can use, and in campaign, specially hammer campaign, the mountains east of usual OP (later stages) really help countering both air and ground missiles. plan your attack bearings and egress points beforehand.

 

Last thing:

 

Plan a fuel/weapons load for 60 mins flight/25 mins engagement. minimizing vul time is not a beginner tip, but it does help in staying one piece in the midst of all that sh*t.

[skouras]

an f-16 pilot says to me that the best maneuver is to break into the missile while releasing flares'''' the purpose of this maneuver is to confuse the missile

suggest to do the same most of the times it works great

keep your eyes out of the aircraft and to your RWR

[USCav]

Learn to orbit from 13000+ and use your zoom key. Or stay further away and learn the intricacies of the tgp. Granted the scrambler is easier but we will likely never have anything like it other than flares and preemptive flaring doesn't seem to work. Generally by the time you're maneuvering and punching out flares aggressively enough it's already got you. If you don't know how to manually configure flare programs then let's have a chat about that too.

 

I have a working knowledge of just about everything but the countermeasures system. If hear the MWR go off and I see the launch signature I pretty much just flip the countermeasures knob from semi-auto to auto and start maneuvering. Pretty good against radar guided weapons, but those IR ones are tricky as hell...

 

So by all means, take me to school.

[GGTharos]

This is because the automated CMS makes poor decisions. It's probably throwing out chaff instead of flares if you have a radar painting you and a missile launch that's an IR seeker.

 

What you want to do is choose the correct program yourself and activated yourself - keep thing in manual, and not semi-auto or auto, IIRC. Hopefully this will be looked at, because the CMS should be making better decisions.

[PFunk1606688187]

Has anyone made a comprehensive guide for how to correctly manage your CMS in manual mode? Is there a thread where the topic is discussed in depth?

 

I would be surprised if 95% of the virtual A-10C drivers didn't use Semi-Auto or Auto.

[GGTharos]

I don't personally know of one, but I'm sure I've seen recommendations as to CMS program use etc.

[WildBillKelsoe]

there is an option to edit the current A-Z programs. I've attached mine with programs edited as follows:

 

programs = {}

-- Old generation radar SAM
programs['A'] = {}
programs['A']["chaff"] = 0
programs['A']["flare"] = 2
programs['A']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['A']["cycle"] = 10

-- Current generation radar SAM
programs['B'] = {}
programs['B']["chaff"] = 0
programs['B']["flare"] = 2
programs['B']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['B']["cycle"] = 10

-- IR SAM
programs['C'] = {}
programs['C']["chaff"] = 2
programs['C']["flare"] = 0
programs['C']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['C']["cycle"] = 10

-- Default manual presets
-- Mix 1
programs['D'] = {}
programs['D']["chaff"] = 2
programs['D']["flare"] = 0
programs['D']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['D']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 2
programs['E'] = {}
programs['E']["chaff"] = 2
programs['E']["flare"] = 2
programs['E']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['E']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 3
programs['F'] = {}
programs['F']["chaff"] = 2
programs['F']["flare"] = 2
programs['F']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['F']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 4
programs['G'] = {}
programs['G']["chaff"] = 4
programs['G']["flare"] = 4
programs['G']["intv"]  = 0.5
programs['G']["cycle"] = 10

-- Chaff single
programs['H'] = {}
programs['H']["chaff"] = 1
programs['H']["flare"] = 0
programs['H']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['H']["cycle"] = 1

-- Chaff pair
programs['I'] = {}
programs['I']["chaff"] = 2
programs['I']["flare"] = 0
programs['I']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['I']["cycle"] = 1

-- Flare single
programs['J'] = {}
programs['J']["chaff"] = 0
programs['J']["flare"] = 1
programs['J']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['J']["cycle"] = 1

-- Flare pair
programs['K'] = {}
programs['K']["chaff"] = 0
programs['K']["flare"] = 2
programs['K']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['K']["cycle"] = 1

-- Chaff pre-empt
programs['L'] = {}
programs['L']["chaff"] = 1
programs['L']["flare"] = 0
programs['L']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['L']["cycle"] = 20

-- Flare pre-empt
programs['M'] = {}
programs['M']["chaff"] = 0
programs['M']["flare"] = 1
programs['M']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['M']["cycle"] = 20



ContainerChaffCapacity = 120

ContainerFlareCapacity = 60

NumberOfContiners      = 4

AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL = 0
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING    = 1
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR    = 2
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR    = 3
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING    = 4

Damage = {    {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V total failure",  Element = 10, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.5, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V left wing container failure",  Element = 23, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V left gear container failure",  Element = 15, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V right gear container failure",  Element = 16, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V right wing container failure",  Element = 24, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
}


need_to_be_closed = true -- lua_state  will be closed in post_initialize()

 

Change program Charlie © for it is wrong:

 

-- IR SAM programs['C'] = {} programs['C']["chaff"] = 2 programs['C']["flare"] = 0 programs['C']["intv"] = 5.0 programs['C']["cycle"] = 10

[RIFLE_JTAC_TRAINING]

P*Funk,

 

regardless of the air threat if boots are on the ground the A-10s are going in. From the mouths of A-10 pilots.

 

Also, one pilot said he had a side arm and once shot down would join the front line. Of course tongue in cheek but these pilots are the alpha male of the aircraft community in my personal opinion.

 

63

[GGTharos]

All fighter pilots are Alpha males of the aircraft community, so are the assault pilots.

[AlphaOneSix]

P*Funk,

 

regardless of the air threat if boots are on the ground the A-10s are going in. From the mouths of A-10 pilots.

 

 

Just one reason why the pilots themselves don't get to make that decision.

[RIFLE_JTAC_TRAINING]

A-10 pilot says "boots are on the ground, Im overhead". Alpha male

 

F-18 pilot says " manpad threat, Im not taking off!" Weak Sauce.

 

63

[GGTharos]

The F-18 pilot flies above the MANPAD threat, and can deal with the radar threat, too.

[Flagrum]

there is an option to edit the current A-Z programs. I've attached mine with programs edited as follows:

 

programs = {}

-- Old generation [color=Red]radar [/color]SAM
programs['A'] = {}
programs['A']["chaff"] = 0
programs['A'][color=Red]["flare"] = 2[/color]
programs['A']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['A']["cycle"] = 10

-- Current generation [color=Red]radar [/color]SAM
programs['B'] = {}
programs['B']["chaff"] = 0
programs['B'][color=Red]["flare"] = 2[/color]
programs['B']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['B']["cycle"] = 10

-- [color=Red]IR [/color]SAM
programs['C'] = {}
programs['C'][color=Red]["chaff"] = 2[/color]
programs['C']["flare"] = 0
programs['C']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['C']["cycle"] = 10

-- Default manual presets
-- Mix 1
programs['D'] = {}
programs['D']["chaff"] = 2
programs['D']["flare"] = 0
programs['D']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['D']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 2
programs['E'] = {}
programs['E']["chaff"] = 2
programs['E']["flare"] = 2
programs['E']["intv"]  = 5.0
programs['E']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 3
programs['F'] = {}
programs['F']["chaff"] = 2
programs['F']["flare"] = 2
programs['F']["intv"]  = 0.25
programs['F']["cycle"] = 10

-- Mix 4
programs['G'] = {}
programs['G']["chaff"] = 4
programs['G']["flare"] = 4
programs['G']["intv"]  = 0.5
programs['G']["cycle"] = 10

-- Chaff single
programs['H'] = {}
programs['H']["chaff"] = 1
programs['H']["flare"] = 0
programs['H']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['H']["cycle"] = 1

-- Chaff pair
programs['I'] = {}
programs['I']["chaff"] = 2
programs['I']["flare"] = 0
programs['I']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['I']["cycle"] = 1

-- Flare single
programs['J'] = {}
programs['J']["chaff"] = 0
programs['J']["flare"] = 1
programs['J']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['J']["cycle"] = 1

-- Flare pair
programs['K'] = {}
programs['K']["chaff"] = 0
programs['K']["flare"] = 2
programs['K']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['K']["cycle"] = 1

-- Chaff pre-empt
programs['L'] = {}
programs['L']["chaff"] = 1
programs['L']["flare"] = 0
programs['L']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['L']["cycle"] = 20

-- Flare pre-empt
programs['M'] = {}
programs['M']["chaff"] = 0
programs['M']["flare"] = 1
programs['M']["intv"]  = 1.0
programs['M']["cycle"] = 20



ContainerChaffCapacity = 120

ContainerFlareCapacity = 60

NumberOfContiners      = 4

AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL = 0
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING    = 1
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR    = 2
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR    = 3
AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING    = 4

Damage = {    {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_TOTAL", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V total failure",  Element = 10, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.5, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_WING", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V left wing container failure",  Element = 23, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_LEFT_GEAR", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V left gear container failure",  Element = 15, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_GEAR", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V right gear container failure",  Element = 16, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
       {Failure = AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING, Failure_editor_name = "AN_ALE_40V_FAILURE_CONTAINER_RIGHT_WING", Failure_name = "AN-ALE-40V right wing container failure",  Element = 24, Intergrity_Treshold = 0.75, work_time_to_fail_probability = 0.5, work_time_to_fail = 3600*300},
}


need_to_be_closed = true -- lua_state  will be closed in post_initialize()

Change program Charlie © for it is wrong:

 

-- IR SAM programs['C'] = {} programs['C']["chaff"] = 2 programs['C']["flare"] = 0 programs['C']["intv"] = 5.0 programs['C']["cycle"] = 10

Err ... what is this!? You are firing flares against radar SAMs and chaff against IR threats?

[sobek]

Err ... what is this!? You are firing flares against radar SAMs and chaff against IR threats?

 

Yes, to confuse them even more!

[camsr]

I don't know if this is modeled in the game but lowering the throttle is supposed to help or so I've heard. Launch flares immediately after detection. Try to get behind the flares if you know where the SAM is.

[Lusik]

I don't know if this is modeled in the game but lowering the throttle is supposed to help or so I've heard. Launch flares immediately after detection. Try to get behind the flares if you know where the SAM is.

 

It works. Reducing thrust, popping flares and evasive maneuvering saves me 9 out of 10 times provided that I see the missile.

[JayPee]

Err ... what is this!? You are firing flares against radar SAMs and chaff against IR threats?

Regarding CMS programmes, take a look at the attachment. Colum A in the third tab is properly formatted and ready to copy paste into your params.lua. It contains cell references so whatever you change in the first tab, will be automatically updated.

 

To have the quickest response to threats, set to SEMI and browse to programme C to set it as your current one. C is basically your OH SHIT!-programme if things start to beep and flash when the system itself hasn't determined what the threat is. If any of the automatically detectable threats are encountered, an appropriate (A, B, L, or M) programme will be selected anyway in SEMI/AUTO. As soon as the heat is off you should switch back to C to have it stand-by again for when needed.

 

Same goes for the 2 pre-empts and the 6 egress one-shots. Should you use them, be sure to switch back to C for emergencies.

 

Small note, I've heard people assuming that in SEMI/AUTO you have no control over programme selection, only over consent to release. This is not true, at least in SEMI (check AUTO for yourself if you like) you can select whatever programme you want, it is just that it will auto select programme A, B, L, or M if the corresponding threats are encountered.

 

When digging through the cockpit script files I admit you will not find a reason to believe the system will automatically select M upon incoming IR. It only mentions auto selection of A, B, and L for specified RADAR threats. However, testing proves it does auto select M so it has to be hardcoded somewhere else. Also take note that the manual and other documentation might imply that the system "automatically selects a programme to match the current threat". This is only partly true. It is true in that it selects a preset programme for a certain threat as stated in tab 1 column C. It is not true in that whenever you switch the content of programme A and M for instance, it'll still auto select A upon encountering an SA-6 and subsequently will punch out flares, which is definitely not auto selecting a programme to match the current threat.

 

I've come to these programme configurations and conclusions with the help of others and by stepwise testing in-game. One last thing, if you want to change programmes yourself, be sure to explicitly type a period (.) as a seperator if your location settings are set to use a comma (,). The latter is probably the case in Western-Europe minus UK.

Edited January 13, 2014 by JayPee

[Flagrum]

Small note, I've heard people assuming that in SEMI/AUTO you have no control over programme selection, only over consent to release. This is not true, at least in SEMI (check AUTO for yourself if you like) you can select whatever programme you want, it is just that it will auto select programme A, B, L, or M if the corresponding threats are encountered.

Thanks, great summary of the inner workings of the CMS! +rep! :o)

 

Especially I wasn't aware of the logic of the SEMI setting. I always thought, too, it works like

1. CMS FWD

2. CMSP selects program

3. program starts

but if I understood you correctly, it is rather

1a. select program manually OR

1b. CMSP selects program

2. CMS FWD

3. program starts

Is that correct?

[JayPee]

Yes that is correct. In SEMI you are in charge of programme selection except when a theeat is detected for which a corresponding programme exists according to the ED logic.

 

I am not sure what happens when you switch to another programme if SEMI has selected one and if the threat is still, well... a threat to you. Perhaps it immediately switches back to its own choice, perhaps it will only auto select once per threat and allow you to switch after that. You'd have to test that for yourself.

 

AUTO is actually a no-go with these programmes given the numbers dumped and intervals.

[MTFDarkEagle]

The only difference from SEMI and AUTO (IIRC) is that AUTO (as the name suggests) automatically initiates the program (you have to stop it yourself!). I NEVER use SEMI or AUTO. For the following reason: if there is a radar signature present (i.e. displayed on the RWR), and an IR sam is shot at you, it will fire chaff... Not exactly the thing you want to happen :P

[JayPee]

How to detect and counter an incoming IR SAM?

 

IRL, at least for the F-16 which used the AN/ALE-40/uses the AN/ALE-47 as well, both SEMI and AUTO require you to manually consent to the start of an ECM programme and chaff/flare release sequence. The main difference is that in SEMI the ECM prog will continue untill the threat is gone while the selected release sequence will only be activated once. In AUTO the release sequence will be repeated untill the threat is gone.

 

Also from an AL/ALE-47 (-40's successor) 'brochure' I've read that it only offers the pilot a choice of 5 programmes to select via the CMMS knob on the stick. This works by appointing programmes to one of 5 slots via the CMSP. Next to this it does more thinking for the pilot than modeled in DCS. For instance if an SA-13 is onto you it would suggest and select an anti RADAR sequence (regardless whether bound to one of the 5 slots) up untill the point where the IR missile is in a range in which it can be spoofed best, at which point an anti IR sequence is selected.

 

Again, I've got this information from publically available sales material and from F-16.net so it is possible to be different though I would assume not entirely different.

Edited January 13, 2014 by JayPee

[MTFDarkEagle]

From the flight manual: (p.403)

 

"

AUTO

When in automatic mode:

The system will automatically select the best chaff/flare program

and

initiate and stop the program.

o

The CMS will select the best

ECM program based on the radar

detected

o

The MWS will detect threats, select the best program and

automatically release countermeasures."

[JayPee]

In DCS yes...