How's it going with 1.2.2 AI dogfighting?

[Yo-Yo]

Right....are you sure we are playing the same game?

 

 

What's wrong? 600 m is a distance I can try to start firing using K-14. The target is in steady 2G turn... AI as a human must have a certain time to make aiming steady. Do not let it make it steady. You must move in its gunsight forcing to change bank, pitch, etc.

 

By the way, I know at least one man who can shoot better than AI... :) Some tears ago I was impressed how he hit a target in Il-2 in P-39 using its 76 mm howitzer :). One shot - one hit. In turn fight!

[nuNce]

What's wrong? 600 m is a distance I can try to start firing using K-14

 

Hitting a target at 600m is all but unrealistic. And I would like to see footage of anyone here making the same shots at least three times in a row.

Edited November 23, 2012 by nuNce

[Mouse]

There is a simple explanation for the AI's amazing snapshot abilities. It gets a lot of practice by playing against hundreds of us for many hours every day. If you played as much DCS as the AI did, you'd have a god-like aim too. :)

[Echo38]

Hitting a target at 600m is all but realistic.

 

I presume that you mean "not realistic." If so, that's wrong. There were real pilots who could hit a target at about a thousand yards. It's also very possible in the sim. I once recorded on track a 1.2 kilometer shot of mine in another flight sim-game which does feature realistic bullet drop and velocity. That was a lucky shot, but I was able to consistently make recorded 800-yard shots. Unfortunately, I can't reproduce now to prove it to you, because of aforementioned skill atrophy, but I know there are v-pilots here who still can.

[Exorcet]

What skill setting do you use for the AI, average, good, ...? I always set them to average (the lowest setting), and still can't shoot them down. I think ED should make the lowest skill setting very easy to beat, and for those who want a challenge, they can make the excellent AI perfect...

 

I also think there should be more difference in AI skill level. For a 1v1, the AI is great because it flies on the limit and provides a good challenge, but in a larger engagement things get weird.

 

The last time I was a big Battle of Britain situation with many AI, they couldn't really kill each other (and one pair only got kills after ramming into each other while trying to out turn the other plane) and with the planes always constantly turning at or near the limit (and always having their engines at full throttle all the time) I couldn't really "sneak" up on the AI when they were involved in fighting another plane, and all the AI pilots felt like they were the same person.

 

AI like the Mustang's is good for a 1 v 1 or for modern BVR jets (because dogfights don't happen as often), but I think it needs a bit more variability and in the lower AI levels, fallibility to look a bit more convincing. Also, the AI needs to have some form of engine durability limit as once you get into a fight, you're trapped unless you can reach 350+mph.

[nuNce]

AI like the Mustang's is good for a 1 v 1 or for modern BVR jets (because dogfights don't happen as often), but I think it needs a bit more variability and in the lower AI levels, fallibility to look a bit more convincing. Also, the AI needs to have some form of engine durability limit as once you get into a fight, you're trapped unless you can reach 350+mph.

 

Agreed.

[VIMANAMAN]

Well there's some passionate views on this subject. That's no bad thing :)

 

Some of us are unaware of this still I think - but the last word I heard from the Mod Team was that the Skill level only changes the range at which the AI can detect you. And not it's flying / shooting abilities. I assume this is still the case ED?

 

It most certainly would be good if we could have lower 'true flying / shooting skill settings' available for variety and for more progressive training.

 

In a furball, I totally agree the AI's behaviour is currently not very convincing. I've done a lot of testing in previous versions and a reasonable bit in 1.2.2, and the AI does need some considerable improvement if we are to have convincing SP multi aircraft scraps.

 

I've noticed as well that in a 4V4 mission the AI break into 4 separate, single minded duels with no exceptions i.e. not engaging easier targets if they present themselves during the furball - these duels take a good while to play out, and do occasionally end in collisions, but usually there is a winner. When there is a winner however they don't support any team mates although do stay 'local'.

 

In 2V4 this is more exaggerated - the 'spare' aircraft do not attempt to engage the enemy, until their already engaged 'wingman' is shot down - only then do they engage normally. They also don't fly as a wingman would, but maybe this is the mission designers job?

 

Things are getting better though in 1.1.2 after any successful engagement the AI almost always committed suicide a few mins - this was corrected in 1.2.1. So hopefully this is still a work in progress.

 

However in 1V1 the AI is awesome! Hard, yes! 'The least convincing', no! Not by a fat margin. It makes you a better virtual pilot. Yeah it is hard and frustrating and the AI is uber good and has a simplified FM to some degree it seems - but I wouldn't learn much (and I'd get very bored) if I got a kill every fight, or every 10 fights for that matter.

 

Which brings me to my original Q - has it got easier to kill the AI pilot himself or otherwise completely disable the EA? Anyone else noticed an increase in the frequency of AI going into a terminal dive after a brief burst but with no trailing smoke etc.?

 

Anyway peace on Earth, shoot to kill:v:

Edited November 24, 2012 by VIMANAMAN

[Echo38]

Which brings me to my original Q - has it got easier to kill the AI pilot himself or otherwise completely disable the EA? Anyone else noticed an increase in the frequency of AI going into a terminal dive after a brief burst but with no trailing smoke etc.?

 

I've never P.K.ed the A.I. A P.K. takes either a great deal of luck (and I am not a lucky man), or else a very steady shot. The A.I. never gives me a steady shot; the few times I've shot it down, it was the result of numerous desperate snapshots.

 

However, I've P.K.ed my human opponents a fair number of times. I sometimes can guess that it's a P.K., but most of the time, I don't realize it until they let me know over voice chat.

[Yo-Yo]

Try to set the group of 3 planes + yourself vs a group of 4. THen you will better understand how good is AI... :) Even if you sit on somebody's 6 you often will be disappointed that somebody gets on your own 6...

[VIMANAMAN]

Try to set the group of 3 planes + yourself vs a group of 4. THen you will better understand how good is AI... Even if you sit on somebody's 6 you often will be disappointed that somebody gets on your own 6...

 

I still can't remember how to quote with the posters name..... :doh:

 

Thanks Yo-Yo - I tried that in 1.1.2 - and this is where most of the '4v4 AI only' testing was done if I'm honest - it seemed to be lots of private wars :) But I'll try what you suggest. And I'll try some more '4v4 AI only' testing in 1.2.2 - will post how I get on.

 

The 2V4 testing is however done in 1.2.2 - where the wingmen wait for a un-engaged EA before they engage it. Which would be cool, so long as they flew wing or top cover, but they don't at the mo. But like I said earlier maybe I need to spend more time at the mission design stage?

 

I've never P.K.ed the A.I. A P.K. takes either a great deal of luck (and I am not a lucky man), or else a very steady shot. The A.I. never gives me a steady shot; the few times I've shot it down, it was the result of numerous desperate snapshots.

 

However, I've P.K.ed my human opponents a fair number of times. I sometimes can guess that it's a P.K., but most of the time, I don't realize it until they let me know over voice chat.

 

Cheers Echo38 - I guess I just had a strange run of luck last weekend, as in two separate half hour sessions the AI dove straight in, twice, after a snap shot, and this was the first time I've 1v1'd for a while. My shooting has improved, but only marginally - as this afternoon demonstrated - no repeat occurances of this today. Weird!

 

Altho I did get behind him for prolonged periods a few times :thumbup: But did I mention my shootings not great! Smoked him! But NO kills!! :mad:

[Echo38]

I still can't remember how to quote with the posters name...

 

Lower right hand corner of the post, there's a quote button.

 

The 2V4 testing is however done in 1.2.2 - where the wingmen wait for a un-engaged EA before they engage it. Which would be cool, so long as they flew wing or top cover, but they don't at the mo. But like I said earlier maybe I need to spend more time at the mission design stage?

 

I only tried 2 vs. 4 in 1.2.1, but it worked just fine there. I usually ended up with 1 in front of me and 3 on my six, and that was when I started out with a large energy advantage. Downing a single target before being downed myself was rather difficult. (By the way, my ally was also a human player--this may make a difference.)

[VIMANAMAN]

Lower right hand corner of the post, there's a quote button.

 

Ah Ha! So there is! Cheers Echo

[Ratfink]

only time I took the AI out, was when we collided and I took his wing off. Otherwise, he gets me everytime or I crash into the ground due to some mishap. I have noticed adding a bit of flap helps, but there must be a trade off.

[nick10]

The AI simply will not black out in high g. Not fair in high speed turns.

[Echo38]

The AI simply will not black out in high g. Not fair in high speed turns.

 

You're lead-turning him, and thus pulling more G's. I can follow the A.I. in the most high-G turns he makes without ever blacking out myself. (I can't keep up with his energy management, but that's my problem.)

[Yo-Yo]

I began to use Tacview at least... Great thing and I guess it's the best way to get better in dogfight either vs AI or vs a human. You can use all its features for 21 day for free. And I think I will make myself a Christmas gift. :) After these 21 days.

 

I post here two Tacview charts, the acmi track and a video from the first person showing my views of this duel. I do not want to say that the dogfight was ideal regarding some tactical mistakes, shooting, etc. I only want to show that anybody can beat AI in DCS though I must say that it's way harmful and skillful than in other WW II sims (I can not say nothing about ROF, though)

 

 

Rename .zip to .7z

 

Video:

 

Excellent AI, no WEP, no flaps.

Tacview-20121128-165251.txt.acmi.zip

Edited November 28, 2012 by Yo-Yo

[billeinstein]

The AI in the beta was amazing, both deadly maneuver and deadly aiming. Now it is much easy to fight with.

 

Post a 1.2.1 fight ACMI.

 

The distance of begining is important. In the dogfight quick mission, the AI will take their six at first while many guys don't notice anything.

 

Youtube is blocked by the govenment here. So I can't watch or upload video on that. Hope you can watch the first person view video on this site:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDY1NDUyMDQw.html

Tacview-20121023-070740.txt.rar

[Yo-Yo]

The AI in the beta was amazing, both deadly maneuver and deadly aiming. Now it is much easy to fight with.

 

Post a 1.2.1 fight ACMI.

 

The distance of begining is important. In the dogfight quick mission, the AI will take their six at first while many guys don't notice anything.

 

Youtube is blocked by the govenment here. So I can't watch or upload video on that. Hope you can watch the first person view video on this site:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDY1NDUyMDQw.html

 

Do you use WEP or flaps? AI had no changes all that time. Or maybe it is your skill that grew... :)

 

I think that the quick mission must start from duel position.

[billeinstein]

Not used them. In my thought, the WEP will kill my engine sooner and the flaps will kill the energy. The AI looks like never overheat its engine and leak minimal energy during the fight.

 

The difficulty of AI may affect the combat ability of them from the v1.2.1. The excellent AI is still deadly as the beta one. I took about 20 minutes to shot it down.

[Yo-Yo]

Not used them. In my thought, the WEP will kill my engine sooner and the flaps will kill the energy. The AI looks like never overheat its engine and leak minimal energy during the fight.

 

The difficulty of AI may affect the combat ability of them from the v1.2.1. The excellent AI is still deadly as the beta one. I took about 20 minutes to shot it down.

 

Anyway, you lost your energy comparing to the AI, but I think it's not an ultimate rating. Your energy gives you something like optimal sustained turn speed (average) especially at last period.

[wolle]

Hi Yo-Yo,

 

From your experience, how much variation in flying skill is there between different skill settings, between Excellent and Average?

 

For the Average skill setting, I would like to have a near-sighted pilot, who is drunk and easily gets motion-sickness, so that he cannot do any fast maneuvers. This will help people like me learn dog-fighting in steps, rather than having to do everything near-perfectly to shoot down the AI.

[Yo-Yo]

Hi Yo-Yo,

 

From your experience, how much variation in flying skill is there between different skill settings, between Excellent and Average?

 

For the Average skill setting, I would like to have a near-sighted pilot, who is drunk and easily gets motion-sickness, so that he cannot do any fast maneuvers. This will help people like me learn dog-fighting in steps, rather than having to do everything near-perfectly to shoot down the AI.

 

I think that hi-G tolerance and less aiming ability our AI have now is enough... :) if you feel that AI is still perfect for you add him fuel. It makes all the job.

[Ratfink]

Please can any of you guys that find it easy to defeat the AI post a regular trk so I can see how it's done? All I offer in return is my gratitude :)

[rextar]

+1

[NineLine]

Please can any of you guys that find it easy to defeat the AI post a regular trk so I can see how it's done? All I offer in return is my gratitude :)

 

 

Did you see his post here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1616974&postcount=41

 

He has a vid in there...