ECM & Standoff Jamming capabilities

[Ripcord]

I see that some aircraft have defensive ECM pods but I have found none that perform active stand-off jamming of enemy radars, al a EA-6B / EA-18 using jamming pods. Is this SOJ function simply not modeled at all in this sim?

[joey45]

Probably as there is not info about them.

[Ripcord]

Probably that is the reason, Joey.

 

On that subject, I will give my opinion that I'd rather have a reasonaly likeness, something at least in the realm of reality, than have nothing at all -- kinda like all the other great modern warfare sims have managed to provide. If we can get close and approximate with combined arms, then I think we can get close and approximate with standoff jamming capabilities.

[Eddie]

Self Protection Jammers (SPJ) are different to the ECM systems on dedicated Electronic Warfare such as EA-6B or EA-18G and they work in different ways.

 

SPJs are there purely to protect the aircraft to which that are attached against specific threats, and can only "jam" a small number of systems at once (the actual number varies between systems).

 

There is plenty of info to model a very detailed and realistic representation of electronic warfare systems (as ever it's not what they do that is classified, it's how they do it). ED just haven't had the time/resources yet.

[badger66]

Cheers for the answer , be an interesting project though .

[Ripcord]

Yes, thank you for the comment on this, Eddie.

[Home Fries]

Stand-Off Jamming is such an important part of the current western air doctrine that a carrier strike package won't go up without a Prowler/Growler in the air. I would love to see The EF-18G and the EA-6B in DCS, though I would probably have more fun skinning the Prowler.

 

Interestingly enough: From the late 1990s to the mid 2000s, the Prowler was in service with both the USN/USMC and USAF through the use of Joint Expeditionary squadrons. This would be great platform for fans of all US services.

 

EDIT: I'm not so worried about a flyable aircraft, as modeling the AI for the ECMO stations would be difficult. However, just having their capabilities in-game would be awesome.

[Святой]

Probably as there is not info about them.

 

ECM is not a subject to implement realistically due the many reasons.

 

Simple model may be used here.

 

This model would define two parameters:

- detection distance penalty ratio in main lobe

- detection distance penalty ratio in side lobes

for each pair "stand-off jammer - radar".

 

Penalty is a factor that is depended on a distance from radar to ECM carrier.

 

To save game balance stand-off jammers may have the same effectiveness for both sides.

 

Of course database will be open for modding and ECM experts may create their own mods.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Святой

[Kusch]

Святой what are the chances that (Simple model) it will be in the near future?

[Святой]

Святой what are the chances that (Simple model) it will be in the near future?

May be or may be not.

[Kusch]

:D

[BlueRidgeDx]

To save game balance stand-off jammers may have the same effectiveness for both sides.

 

This is a terrible idea. What's the purpose of modelling different systems if, in the end, they all have identical capabilities?

 

Better give the A-10 some turbo boost, because the MiG-29 is faster, and it isn't "fair"...

[Wolf Rider]

Gotta agree....

 

I never understood the "game balance" thing myself, as military development was all about getting on top of the opponent, not holding hands with them and dancing around in circles

[Святой]

This is a terrible idea. What's the purpose of modelling different systems if, in the end, they all have identical capabilities?

 

Better give the A-10 some turbo boost, because the MiG-29 is faster, and it isn't "fair"...

 

Flight characteristics of A-10 and MiG-29 are not classified and known by many people. None will protest against A-10 low speed in comparison to MiG-29.

 

Information about effectiveness of such black boxes like ECM is usually classified.

 

Even if we will find something about such systems, this will not be a high-reliable source and it will be impossible to make players believe we implemented the systems right.

 

Of course ECM parameters may be open for modding and anyone who think he is an expert and know better ECM capabilities may create its own mod.

[Ripcord]

Even if we will find something about such systems, this will not be a high-reliable source and it will be impossible to make players believe we implemented the systems right.

 

Of course ECM parameters may be open for modding and anyone who think he is an expert and know better ECM capabilities may create its own mod.

 

This might explain why this feature is a low priority. I don't agree that it is a reason to not implement it at all.

 

It might be unfair, but I often compare what I see in this sim with another great sim that Wags produced, Janes F/A-18. Tell me how the Janes F/A-18 team managed to implement at least something for the EA-6B, in terms of SOJ? Certainly there was not more information back then. It means that they 'guestimated' to the best of their knowledge.

 

Most of us would say that it is better have some semi-accurate representation rather than have nothing. You are instead asking us all to just assume that US/NATO would willingly sent all these air assets up against S-300s and other SAM threats with no ECM/Jamming support. Of course that would not happen. Which is option is less realistic?

 

The idea that ED will not model something like this because the community would challenge its level of detail/realism is just wrong, and frankly I don't believe it. I think it is a difficult feature to add, and so it is a low priority.

[Святой]

This might explain why this feature is a low priority. I don't agree that it is a reason to not implement it at all.

 

If you missed here is the simple ECM model I supposed in this thread.

 

ECM is not a subject to implement realistically due the many reasons.

 

Simple model may be used here.

 

This model would define two parameters:

- detection distance penalty ratio in main lobe

- detection distance penalty ratio in side lobes

for each pair "stand-off jammer - radar".

 

Penalty is a factor that is depended on a distance from radar to ECM carrier.

 

To save game balance stand-off jammers may have the same effectiveness for both sides.

 

Of course database will be open for modding and ECM experts may create their own mods.

 

I'm sure this implementation would make happy most of FC/DCS players.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Святой

[GGTharos]

Actually I think you could do a more realistic implementation, and especially differenciate SPJ's and SOJ's ... SPJ's typically are meant to break an STT lock and operate when the target aircraft is spiked (ie. locked on in STT).

 

A table of how many targets can be jammed in a particular aspect can be implemented, with the assumption that various radars will operate on separate channels if not frequencies.

 

You could even have a table listing ECM methods and ECCM methods, and each jammer could list which ECM methods it uses and its effectiveness.

 

A radar could list ECCM methods and their effectiveness.

 

HOJ could be mostly ineffective against SPJ's.

 

This is for SPJ's ... SoJ's I suppose can be simpler since in theory they are noise.

[Святой]

Actually I think you could do a more realistic implementation, and especially differenciate SPJ's and SOJ's ... SPJ's typically are meant to break an STT lock and operate when the target aircraft is spiked (ie. locked on in STT).

Yes self-protection jammers are different.

 

A table of how many targets can be jammed in a particular aspect can be implemented, with the assumption that various radars will operate on separate channels if not frequencies.

It doesn't necessary to limit number of jammed radars. We can avoid multiple problems: implementation of target selection algorithm, having ECM state, e.t.c.

 

You could even have a table listing ECM methods and ECCM methods, and each jammer could list which ECM methods it uses and its effectiveness.

 

A radar could list ECCM methods and their effectiveness.

 

HOJ could be mostly ineffective against SPJ's.

It is not required to implement jamming methods, counter-methods e.t.c.

Guidance is an automatic process and players will no cares what is going inside radars, seekers and jammers.

The only matters is that how jammers will affect player abilities in radar target searching and radar-guided weapon using. That's all.

 

What problems jammers bring:

 

Radar searching

 

- Create blind sectors of space around the jammer.

Target detection is impossible, but direction to the jammer is known for the enemy.

Model is described above.

 

Radar-guided weapon using

 

- Make impossible to acquire a target.

Impossible to fire weapon.

Model: acquirement distance depended on SNR.

 

- Break target tracking with further switching to search mode or re-acquiring true or false target.

Weapon will lost target and destruct itself or lock false target (chaff, ground).

Model:

- Mean time between lock breaks depended on SNR.

- Target re-acquiring from random strobe.

 

- Distort target parameters, especially target angular position.

Weapon will miss.

Model:

- For weapon direction to guide itself is a vector summ of direction to true target and directions to different objects: ground objects, chaff, another aircraft. Length of each vector is depended on direct (jammer) and reflected (radar) signal strength.

[GGTharos]

Yes, sorry, the methods are important really only for knowing how to display them on the player's scope, or for specific effect on the target missile etc. However in some cases methods may be important in terms of what they attack.

 

e.g. sidelobe attack methods might be very weak against an ESA antenna of some sort.

 

 

Also I believe modeling the limits of jammers (sector covered + # of jammed targets in sector) is important because it is tactically significant.

Eg. suppose a plane can only jam a single radar in front of it, then the jammer must prioritize for example, STT bandit vs. ARH missile. What if there are two missiles? So yes, it requires a lot more code, ECM state etc but it makes differences in ECM equipment a part of the game, as long as we can find out the operating limitations of some of this equipment.

 

I like what you propose, and yes it keeps things relatively simple as well which is great, and I think it would be a great step forward towards a more realistic EW implementation. But I think the limitations must be added, because a single SPJ jamming everyone when it should not is well, obnoxious. But yes, one step at a time. Currently, simple chaff/flare need to be corrected IMHO.

Edited December 11, 2012 by GGTharos

[Ripcord]

I like this discussion, great stuff!

[Panthir]

Stand off jamming is effecient against SA-3. Test it.