Rusky radar question

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Just to be clear ... the current relative capability of the datalink is far superior to what is available in reality.

Yes, currently, GCI data link does not provide accurate range to target. Also it does not provide target altitude.

 

How much worst then that is it in reality?

 

Even if it is worst in reality, that is not the point. The point is that the Su-27S was designed to work with GCI/AWACS, and that is simulated in Lock On. Why are map makers "clipping Sukhoi's wings" in on line maps, I don't know.

[Pilotasso]

The question use the word "usually" not the word "always". So no you would not always, under all circumsantces launch AIM-120 after BT.

 

Even then, you should NEVER wait for Burn through if your being locked-and probably fired upon but youll never know before he bruns through-then youll out of room to fire but to evade if it isnt too late already. Trying to burn through will also alert your enemy (since I assume your flyimg russian plane all the time). So if your up to an F-15 trying to burn through, your already at disavantage since both of your are facing each other but you wont have lock warning at all.

I only wait for burn through If:

1)the enemy is still not pointing his radar at me

2) I have visual and put some angle off(I'm usualy high), and if he turns to me I fire no matter what.

3) if the enemy is behaving as if not alarmed by being painted but not locked (TWS doesnt give any warning, neither if Im HOJ)

 

 

 

So you suggest I should "hide" and wait until the target is some 5 to 15 km from me so that i can lock him through EOS with 27-ET/R-73. So that is your answer against AIM-120, one of the deadliest Active Radar Homing Missile in the world? What are you joking or something? Why should an F-15 pilot put itself into such a trap?

 

I use terrain masking alot when flying the russian birds. But you have to choose the ground carefully to keep yourself away from high fliers.

If I get painted, I beam him untill I leave his view cone or he gives up pointing at me. Then I sneak upon him, sighting the black dot I start trying to uses the EOS. If I see him with high angle off I make an abrupt climb and let off An R-27ER to force him into defensive (they usualy drop to the weeds) he will take a while trying to figure out where I am (how high) and fire, but by that time I have already let 2 or 3 more missiles (R-27 ET too) on his way. The trick here is to resist the temptation to keep flying straight at an enemy that is aware of you. In such cases I simply run away and try from the beggining again.

 

 

Many of you keep talking about "tactics", yet I have not seen an answer to a basic question that I asked so many times on this thread. If it is about tactics, how come, it is the F-15 or MiG-29S on top of the list in on-line games most of the time?

I know what your question is but your basicaly demanding an answer that you want to hear. Tactics are learned the hard way. If you wanna confront your targets directly choose F-15 (something tells me you wont do it! :icon_roll )

The russian birds require more finesse. I prefer to go through the front door with guns blazing but I have seen ALOT of R-27 ET's kills. If you cant do the same then theres something wrong with your skills. Sorry.

I have alredy gave you some tips as well as others (dont expect me to tell my secrets though ;) ) now its time to practice. remenber dont fly directly to your oponents mouth. These are golden words. Listen while I last. ;)

 

 

Padawan? What is that?

 

Its a star wars joke...Jedi aprentice. Midiclorians give you the power of the force. :)

 

 

My son is probably little younger then you, so when it comes to an age, I am probably old enough to be your father.

 

Maybe but then you would need to have made a serious mistake during your puberty...ah those memories, pemples and premature ejeculation, dumping girls like changes o socks...:icon_karu

 

Besides you can never be too old to learn (perhaps too stuburn?) consider this as a compliment...:biggrin:

[wsoul2k]

Yes, currently, GCI data link does not provide accurate range to target. Also it does not provide target altitude.

 

How much worst then that is it in reality?

 

Even if it is worst in reality, that is not the point. The point is that the Su-27S was designed to work with GCI/AWACS, and that is simulated in Lock On. Why are map makers "clipping Sukhoi's wings" in on line maps, I don't know.

 

OK...but in this post I was talking about FDL ( Figther Data-link ) ...in this situation...ME in my SU-27 will be iluminating the target to you...you will receave info in your SU-27 based im my radar contacts...

 

You can be in the "shadowns" all the time in finish the target in a sthealt mode using EOS

 

no need for an AWACS or GCI

 

BUt im no sure about this capability Force_feedback is translating the manual

 

and if big IF this is true this can change the way the Su is flyed

[GGTharos]

OK...but in this post I was talking about FDL ( Figther Data-link ) ...in this situation...ME in my SU-27 will be iluminating the target to you...you will receave info in your SU-27 based im my radar contacts...

 

You can be in the "shadowns" all the time in finish the target in a sthealt mode using EOS

 

no need for an AWACS or GCI

 

BUt im no sure about this capability Force_feedback is translating the manual

 

and if big IF this is true this can change the way the Su is flyed

 

See, now that may not be entirely correct ... you might not need a CGI/AWACS or some C2 repeater for your own airgroup ... but multiple airgroups, don't be so sure.

[TucksonSonny]

Face it: in version 1.02 it was a problem to get a free slot for the Su-27 online.

Now in version 1.11 all the slots for the Mig-29s and F-15C are in use and mostly Su-27 slots are still open. (Together with the score table proof that balance is broken)

@Pilotasso,

All this talk against the AWACS support idea for the Su27 is kind of hypocrite.

The idea was just to restore the balance again not improving our tactics.

I still can occasionally score a kill F-15C with the Su but I have the impression that I am fighting with a long-bow against a rifle.

Anyway I pick the mig29s next time. Problem solved...

[Prophet_169th]

It would be interesting to see what the situation would be, now that AWACS isnt all seeing.

 

I would be up for seeing one of the larger servers give this a try.

[Pilotasso]

Anyway I pick the mig29s next time. Problem solved...

 

Are you sure? I'm getting the feeling that the most kills I get are migs. Skilled SU pilots make stealth attacks with R-27 ET's as oposed to the migs who prefer to use all 4 R-77's. Skilled Su pilots turn tail and run when they get a sniff on my AMRAAM's as oposed to the migs who knowing they wont last in a chase, stay to make a stand but then its a race of missiles. I have more, and more fuel to get him in a chase if he gets winchester.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Jane's "How to Fly and Fight in the Mikoyan MiG-29 by Jon Lake". Page 74, BVR Combat. Mid of the second paragraph, quote:

"The pilot has very hard time knowing who he's locked on to and what the situation is, so not only do we enjoy a significant advantage with our long range Amram missile, but crucially we also enjoy a significant situational awareness advantage. This means that we could quite often get somebody into the fight unseen, just because their system wold not permit them to see the whole engagement. That's the key reason why they are so reliant on GCI or AWACS control." End of quote.

 

Further down the text, page 75, beginning of the second paragraph, quote:

“Of course, when they get an active –homing missile, a genuinely fire-and-forget weapon, all of that will be history.” End of quote.

 

Any comments, GGTharos?

[GGTharos]

Here's a comment.

 

The MiG-29's radar as is modelled in LOMAC differs from the F-15's in precicely three ways:

 

It's TWS does not allow non-STT engagement

It's TWS drops out when jammed

It's range is shorter

 

It is NOT the case that the radar is otherwise weak - it is quite comparable to the F_15's in LOMAC.

 

As for

”Of course, when they get an active –homing missile, a genuinely fire-and-forget weapon, all of that will be history", the real R77 as it exists right now appears to be inferior to the AMRAAM and none of this matters.

 

In the end, none of what you quotes matters in LOMAC because IT DOES NOT APPLY TO LOMAC.

[Cosmonaut]

I don't think anyone has a problem with awacs/ewr being a part of online missions, they're already in some missions online and it works just fine. However what most people object to is the placing of awacs/ewr in every online mission for the sole purpose of balance. IMO Awacs/ewr should only be used if it suites the mission and is the preference of the mission builder or host..that's it.

 

As for realism, well who ever said flying online was realistic? It can be chaotic, unfair, intense and competitive but realism isn't a word I would attach to lockon when flying online .. although fun is definitely a word I would attach to it :) . If you want realism or realistic engagements then you'd be better off setting up SP missions/campaigns that are closer to what would actually happen if a particular engagement took place, which is the main reason why I mostly play SP now.

 

When building online missions you've got to consider the playability of the mission with regards to the limitations that exist with in the online aspect of lockon. Just throwing in Awacs with all missions will probably have an adverse affect on how the game is played and will most likely produce an undesirable effect. So if you feel like a challenge then Fly a Su, if you want to be more competitive online then fly a Mig/F15.

[Gazehound]

I don't think anyone has a problem with awacs/ewr being a part of online missions, they're already in some missions online and it works just fine. However what most people object to is the placing of awacs/ewr in every online mission for the sole purpose of balance. IMO Awacs/ewr should only be used if it suites the mission and is the preference of the mission builder or host..that's it.

 

As for realism, well who ever said flying online was realistic? It can be chaotic, unfair, intense and competitive but realism isn't a word I would attach to lockon when flying online .. although fun is definitely a word I would attach to it :) . If you want realism or realistic engagements then you'd be better off setting up SP missions/campaigns that are closer to what would actually happen if a particular engagement took place, which is the main reason why I mostly play SP now.

 

When building online missions you've got to consider the playability of the mission with regards to the limitations that exist with in the online aspect of lockon. Just throwing in Awacs with all missions will probably have an adverse affect on how the game is played and will most likely produce an undesirable effect. So if you feel like a challenge then Fly a Su, if you want to be more competitive online then fly a Mig/F15.

 

Spot on Cosmonaut. It can be added or not to create different environments to fly in - especially now you can use terrain masking etc to hide from it.

I think a lot of the issues stem from peoples obsession with the scoreboard - FORGET the scoreboard if you think your plane is undermodelled (which you will because everyone does) and have a good time and work on teamwork and tactics and be sporting.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

In the end, none of what you quotes matters in LOMAC because IT DOES NOT APPLY TO LOMAC.

I was hoping you were going to read between the lines. But you did not. Anyway, this thread is over form me.

[GGTharos]

I was hoping you were going to read between the lines. But you did not. Anyway, this thread is over form me.

You mean the illogical connection that when they get an ARH missile they won't need GCI? ;)

 

The ARH missile somehow makes their ability to search and track better than it was before and improves their SA? :confused:

 

Or are you saying that Russian aircraft operators require GCI to get the tactical picture unlike western aircraft operators?

If that's so, I agree to some extent (Western aircraft operators also rely a lot on AWACS) however I will SAY IT AGAIN:

 

This Has NOTHING TO DO WITH LOMAC because the defficiencies of the 'system' which require those operators to be so reliant on GCI ARE NOT MODELLED.

 

Clear enough?

[Alfa]

You mean the illogical connection that when they get an ARH missile they won't need GCI? ;)

 

The ARH missile somehow makes their ability to search and track better than it was before and improves their SA? :confused:

 

It is not that illogical GG ;)

 

While ARH weapns dont provide this themselves, keep in mind that properly integrated use of ARH AAMs also involves radar changes - either via extensive re-design of operation modes/weapons employment procedures of the existing N019 or N001 radars(N019MP and N001VE of the MIG-29SMT and Su-27SM respectively) - including more powerful main processor to boost TWS operations(e.g. to provide "engagement grade" track data for several targets simultaneously)..... or via installation of an entirely different type of radar such as the Zhuk-M, which resembles currently employed "western" radar designs quite closely :) .

 

At any rate the ability to engage targets directly from TWS without having to go into STT for weapons launch does help to retain SA :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Of course it does Alfa, but I don't think that this was the assumption that I was being 'led' to make ;)

[504Goon]

Not to brag or anything, but the 27 and the 33 can keep up with the rest of the aircraft, with or without AWACS/CGI.

[Yellonet]

Anybody else wishing for ARM (Advanced Radar Model) for the fast movers? ;)

[TucksonSonny]

Not to brag or anything, but the 27 and the 33 can keep up with the rest of the aircraft, with or without AWACS/CGI.

 

Nice Goon,

 

Playing on your own server!

With or without AWACS/CGI, that is the question.

 

Of course if I am playing on my personal server with AWACS

via lua script and everything on my other AWACS PC then things go easy too.

BTW, I noticed an F-15C pilot with 4 losses and a ping of 396

[504Goon]

Nice Goon,

 

Playing on your own server!

With or without AWACS/CGI, that is the question.

 

Of course if I am playing on my personal server with AWACS

via lua script and everything on my other AWACS PC then things go easy too.

BTW, I noticed an F-15C pilot with 4 losses and a ping of 396

 

I always prefer our own server:) No AWACS/GCI on that one, as we've had those included only recently. And we haven't got any sort of LUA AWACS system either.

[GGTharos]

THat's funny ... people without skills accusing people with skills of cheating.

 

<sarcasm>

Never seen that one happen before.

</sarcasm>

[504 Wolverine]

I always prefer our own server:) No AWACS/GCI on that one, as we've had those included only recently. And we haven't got any sort of LUA AWACS system either.

 

Yeah we only have the GCI in one or two missions so far as its inclusion has only been decided reciently. We also have no LUA AWACS program installed as our server type person (Zorlac) is a tad paranoid about things like that.

[Gazehound]

Yeah we only have the GCI in one or two missions so far as its inclusion has only been decided reciently.

& not in that mission, I can tell from the planes avaliable to the teams.

[zorlac]

Of course if I am playing on my personal server with AWACS

via lua script and everything on my other AWACS PC then things go easy too.

 

I would get offended about that unjustified comment... but your just acting like a troll, so I wont rise to the bait by starting a flame war.

 

There are no AWACs mods on the VVS504 server. I dont want any applications available to the outside world that I really dont need. Call me paranoid, but thats my job.

 

The export.lua on the server only exports the game events ("x joined", "x killed y", "y bitched about imaginary AWACS on server.. must be there because y is so uber-leet that he could never get shot down by anyone") so it can be seen here:

 

http://www.syn-ack.com/vvs504/serverstatus.shtml

 

(Along with Player count, and network/CPU/Memory usage). It also spits out the IP addresses of the connecting clients so I can keep track of who is on the server, when and where from.

 

So, are you saying that you run lua AWACs on your personal server then? Do this on a regular basis?

[TucksonSonny]

First of all talking with a little sarcasm (telling a little lie to get the truth) is my way to get truth out of people.

The way Goon answered to my suggestion made me believe that he actually made these kills without AWACS and because he is skilled. 5 kills with 0 losses are a pretty nice achievement with the Su-27 and he (Goon) must be indeed a skilled pilot.

Last weekend I could not achieve more than 1 kill and land once with the Su27. I got my 50 points score but became a little reckless and had less success later. Anyway I don’t give up on the Su-27 and like I have said before I can make occasionally kills on F-15C’s in 1 on 1 situation.

But anyhow, it is funny that Mr. USA of the local forum at this time accuses people to be without skills, without knowing the identity (call sign) of these people.