Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[Maximus_Lazarus]

it does feel nice to get a kill like that, but the time window you can keep him on your radar is really short when you're up that high, if you spot him at all.

If you do spot him, and he does not spot you, there is very little escape for him , sometimes he doesn't even get a missile warning at all if the missile is coming from a big enough angle. (almost straight down)

 

But, you're super vulnerable up there. If they see you, you're screwed.

[USARStarkey]

it does feel nice to get a kill like that, but the time window you can keep him on your radar is really short when you're up that high, if you spot him at all.

 

Also, you're super vulnerable up there. If they see you, you're screwed.

 

Not really, its very hard to hit me that high.

 

Let me put it this way. I've had Flankers(and been IN flankers) less than 5nm right behind a F-15 at co-alt. When they fired their ET or ER at about 500 knots, me doing that or more, the missile could not catch me. Half the time, when in this situation myself, I couldn't even get launch authority. So when Im cruising at 680knots at 40-41k, and he manages to shoot one up at me, imagine how hard I have to work to dodge that missile? Not hard at all. I barely have to change course, if that.

 

Also, if your smart with how you use that radar, you can find people who are less than 10nm out flying at 6k. Do it all the time, easy peasy. The guys down low have nearly as hard a time seeing me as I you think i do seeing them if we didnt find each other on the way in 60nm out.

Edited May 20, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Not really, you literally have nowhere to run or hide. You can't really do any defensive manouvres cause you'll either spin right out of control, or lose too much speed/heigh instantly and are now also contraling while you have almost no speed and losing altitude fast.

 

Then, you can only go down to gain some speed , towards EVERYBODY that spotted your "shoot me" smoke trail. And everybody that you flew over cause your radar didn't pick them up. They are now behind you as you tumble down like a limp duck :-(

 

Also, 640 knots ... this means full burner constantly .

 

I've tried this method, i'm no expert but i'm not completely retarded either, it works, but not against a decent pilot.

And not on a busy server.

 

At least not on a consistant basis.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[USARStarkey]

I dunno, works for me on heavily populated servers all time time. :) At full burner at 40,000ft, I can fly pretty much as long as I need to, certainly much longer than anyone trying to chase me down low. at speed, at 40k, a shallow turn is all you need to dodge anything coming up and in front of you from 15k or below. This has worked for me pretty flawlessly, even against multiple shots coming from different aspects. IF I did need to dive for some reason, I could care less about everyone seeing my contrail at this point, as I have clearly lost the initiative and my next move will be to exit the area at full speed, which after my dive is now either close to or over 900 knots...bye bye. :P

 

I do this tactic routinely, and it works just about every time. I dont have any issue whatsoever finding people who are low with my radar. It is very very easy, even when they are close.

Edited May 20, 2014 by USARStarkey

[karambiatos]

So this notch business against radars, should it actually work as well as it does?

[IvanK]

 

Those new Air to Air Harpoons are awesome :)

[Maximus_Lazarus]

So this notch business against radars, should it actually work as well as it does?

 

yes it does, not sure if it works this well in real life (i doubt it), but yes.

[GGTharos]

Yes, it should work. How well it should work exactly depends on the radar. But it will always work.

 

So this notch business against radars, should it actually work as well as it does?

[Oberst Zeisig]

The number goes up? We have already determined that PK is not a reliable indicator of performance, since its so easily manipulated. So what is the point you are trying to make?

 

Agreed PK is not a reliable indicator, that's the main point. Nevertheless these RL situations compared with fighters doing extremely and well timed/trained (sometimes unrealistic) evasive maneuvers like in FC3 the number goes down drastically.

[karambiatos]

Yes, it should work. How well it should work exactly depends on the radar. But it will always work.

Yes, but, should it work as well as it does ingame, or should it be harder to stay in the notch.

[TAW_Blaze]

I dunno, we could debate this for ages. But Ill say this much: At 40k going full speed with stores, I barely have to sneeze to avoid a R-27 coming up at me. I have been fired on before doing this, and I haven't been hit once. In my experience, the notch isn't really that big of deal. They normally go into the notch right after I fire the for the first time, and then come out of it 10 seconds later with no idea where I'm at because they're pointing in the wrong direction and they aren't looking up.

 

You missed the entire point, a decent russian driver will spot you high early in AB and he'll stay in the notch and the first thing you'll see is that something splashed your little bird. Best case scenario you'll spot the missile smoke but that's not a real reliable thing when he's below you.

 

Second, I have encountered multiple bandits just about every time I do this. Normally, they are all hiding in the mountains and have about the same chance as the target of hitting me. I am simply going far too fast to be hit. I never descend below 35,000ft unless I know my target is alone and I am greedy for the kill. If for some reason I miss, I zoom back to 40k and book it out of the AO or engage some other target that doesn't require me to turn around. I haven't done this against the AI at all. I've done it only in a "server scenario." I have only had TWO AIM-120s go stupid due to ground clutter out of dozens that did not.

 

Just because it works against the usual server scrubs that doesn't mean it's good. Try that aganist Oberst, Frostie, or name anyone that is half good in a russian bird and you'll die repeatedly. Trust me I played a lot of similar scenarios in 1v1 training and most of the time I got killed. Up to 20 miles he doesn't have to be in the perfect notch and you won't see him at all but he'll know your position if you're painting him. He'll know where you are and by the time you get to the range where you could see him in the notch he relocates to a different position and then jumps you.

 

I'm not sure what your on about with the mountains thing. You say I am wrong about not being able to duck into the mountains, and then describe avoiding my missile by......not using the mountains at all.

 

Because they can use the terrain, but not the way you think.

 

Also, it is EXTREMELY easy to predict where people will come out of the notch or our from behind a mountain. ANY Eagle driver worth his salt will require his bogey with ease. So far as I'm concerned, they can sit down their in the notch with their radars off all they want, blind and slow. Even if he knows where I'm at, and is particularly good at avoiding my shots, I can sit there and lob missiles at him if I absolutely have to and keep him defensive.

 

You assumed again that you knew that the guy was there. You won't.

 

Not really, its very hard to hit me that high.

 

No. Your flight path is extremely predictable because you have little room to maneuver, and anyone that you never saw before can easily position himself in a close head on shot that will easily get you.

 

Let me put it this way. I've had Flankers(and been IN flankers) less than 5nm right behind a F-15 at co-alt. When they fired their ET or ER at about 500 knots, me doing that or more, the missile could not catch me. Half the time, when in this situation myself, I couldn't even get launch authority. So when Im cruising at 680knots at 40-41k, and he manages to shoot one up at me, imagine how hard I have to work to dodge that missile? Not hard at all. I barely have to change course, if that.

 

Of course they won't hit. So what if the guy is not behind you but on your 3/9 or front quarter? Yep, you're dead.

 

Also, if your smart with how you use that radar, you can find people who are less than 10nm out flying at 6k. Do it all the time, easy peasy. The guys down low have nearly as hard a time seeing me as I you think i do seeing them if we didnt find each other on the way in 60nm out.

 

Sure you can make a vertical scan of your radar but good luck maintaining altitude with a 90 deg bank at 40 000 ft. Other than that anything inside 10nm low is practically invisible to you.

 

They have a hard time picking you up high because most of them don't even look high.

[Exorcet]

It's been a while since I fought Eagle vs Eagle online, but I've seen some Flankers do the same thing, cruise above contrail height hoping to hide where no one will look.

 

It might allow you to fly fast, but it also allows missiles to fly fast. Also your maneuverability is very limited. I usually spot these people and just very slowly work my way over to them. They're some of the easiest kills. They just can't dodge the missile.

[GGTharos]

Again, it depends on the radar you're fighting, and what it's programmed to do about it that day.

 

Yes, but, should it work as well as it does ingame, or should it be harder to stay in the notch.

[hitman]

What exactly is notching anyways? F-Pole, N-Pole, etc...

[HiJack]

.. So when Im cruising at 680knots at 40-41k

What configuration do you have on your aircraft to reach these speeds? With a normal mission load-out I'm having problems getting over 300knots at angels 41.

[GGTharos]

If by 'normal' you mean 3 tanks, then yeah, you might have some trouble. However, there's no way you are flying at 300TAS. USARStarkey is talking about TAS, not IAS.

 

In any case, you're obviously doing things wrong (yep...wrong).

 

You climb at 350KIAS until you reach the altitude where 350KIAS=M0.95, then pitch for M0.95. That's for the fastest climb from T/O. There are other profiles you can fly, for example keep 350KIAS all the way. Generally, accelerating past M1.2 at 30000'-33000' will make your life easier at high altitudes, and you get your best acceleration at 36000' AFTER you have accelerated to M1.2.

 

What configuration do you have on your aircraft to reach these speeds? With a normal mission load-out I'm having problems getting over 300knots at angels 41.

[USARStarkey]

You missed the entire point, a decent russian driver will spot you high early in AB and he'll stay in the notch and the first thing you'll see is that something splashed your little bird. Best case scenario you'll spot the missile smoke but that's not a real reliable thing when he's below you.

 

 

 

Just because it works against the usual server scrubs that doesn't mean it's good. Try that aganist Oberst, Frostie, or name anyone that is half good in a russian bird and you'll die repeatedly. Trust me I played a lot of similar scenarios in 1v1 training and most of the time I got killed. Up to 20 miles he doesn't have to be in the perfect notch and you won't see him at all but he'll know your position if you're painting him. He'll know where you are and by the time you get to the range where you could see him in the notch he relocates to a different position and then jumps you.

 

 

 

Because they can use the terrain, but not the way you think.

 

 

 

You assumed again that you knew that the guy was there. You won't.

 

 

 

No. Your flight path is extremely predictable because you have little room to maneuver, and anyone that you never saw before can easily position himself in a close head on shot that will easily get you.

 

 

 

Of course they won't hit. So what if the guy is not behind you but on your 3/9 or front quarter? Yep, you're dead.

 

 

 

Sure you can make a vertical scan of your radar but good luck maintaining altitude with a 90 deg bank at 40 000 ft. Other than that anything inside 10nm low is practically invisible to you.

 

They have a hard time picking you up high because most of them don't even look high.

 

 

Actually, you missed my point. I don't know what difficulties your having, but missiles are easy to dodge at 40k. Not loosing altitude in turns at 40k is easy.

Lol, if he shoots from my 3 or 9 at 6k or something big whoop. I'll just keep flying straight and light a cigar while the missile missed for me. Do it all the time.

Also, in not sure what your experience with the radar is, but you seem to think it is a lot harder that it actually is to find people. I WILL know where the enemy is before I'm 10nm out. I can't speak for you though.

I'm not just going to "trust" you. I don't care who you've "trained" with. I've been in servers with several of the people you mentioned and neither of us has killed the other yet.

Lastly, you massively over- estimate the notch. It is practically useless against a good eagle driver.

[TAW_Blaze]

Actually, you missed my point. I don't know what difficulties your having, but missiles are easy to dodge at 40k. Not loosing altitude in turns at 40k is easy.

Lol, if he shoots from my 3 or 9 at 6k or something big whoop. I'll just keep flying straight and light a cigar while the missile missed for me. Do it all the time.

 

It's hard to dodge a missile that you don't know about. If someone gets the chance to shoot uphill from a position where you don't see him and he misses that's his own problem, you can easily push for closer shot that won't be outran at that altitude.

 

What you fail to understand is that there are people who'll fly circles around you without ever using anything that lets you know of their presence.

 

I'm not just going to "trust" you. I don't care who you've "trained" with. I've been in servers with several of the people you mentioned and neither of us has killed the other yet.

 

I guess training with and against the best that there is in this game just doesn't cut it, they suck anyway. Whatever.

 

Lastly, you massively over- estimate the notch. It is practically useless against a good eagle driver.

 

A notch is can be defeated if you have information about the guy. The problem is that you still fail to understand that what I'm talking about is having zero information about the guy, because he knows how to hide his position until it's too late.

[USARStarkey]

Excuse the spelling errors I'm typing on a phone

[USARStarkey]

No what you are misunderstanding is that I won't allow myself to not have info. For every move he's got to hid, I got one to force him into the open. And vise versa.

[TAW_Blaze]

I see it's extremely difficult to grasp the concept that the guy does not hand you information about himself. Practically you won't see him anywhere further than 25nm, and even then you're lucky if you see him at that range.

[USARStarkey]

I see that it is extremely difficult to grasp that I'll get the info whether he wants me to or not.

 

See! I can be patronizing too!

[TAW_Blaze]

It's amusing to think that no matter what they do you'll see everyone in the airspace considering how small part you're effectively scanning.

[MVSokie]

Evereyone stop talking about it and put your money where your mouth is and do some mock battles and post the results for all too see............

[TAW_Blaze]

It's not about a result from a mock battle it's just stupid to fly afterburners all day at space altitude assuming you see everything anyway. It's unrealistic and suicidal. The only reason someone can get away with stuff like this because the majority of people have no idea how to effectively counter it.