AI

[DerHesse70]

Is this only my impression or are there others who think that the AI is a little bit to strong for a beginner.

 

I am a average skilled ROF Player for one year and not absolutely new to flight SIMs.

 

Yesterday i bite my teeth out on it.

 

First in instant action 1 on 1 dogfight. Then i made a mission with the editor. Set the AI to average and fuel for AI and me to 50%. No chance for me. I was always able to place some hits but never to win the fight.

 

I changed to 100% fuel for the AI and 50% for me. No chance!

 

I changed to 100% fuel and full bombs for the AI and 50% fuel for me. Always one mile away from me, the AI dropped the bombs and start fighting! :D No chance!

 

I changed to 20% of fuel for me and 100% for the AI. I was the first time able to turn the AI out and after some maneuver and putting some pressure on it, the AI crashed the plane in the sea after a hard dive. Befor i was able to hit the AI with some shots.

 

Every time i started at the same height as the AI. I used flaps up to 5 notches in hard turns but the AI out turns me without flaps. I always looked at my speed and tried not to lost too much of it in hard turns.

 

How can i get this godlike AI at her balls!?! :mad:

Edited March 6, 2013 by DerHesse70

[Konrad Friedrich]

Yes, it's pretty hard to get that bastard...

The AI makes no mistakes.

 

You really need to learn the complex system of a WWII fighter plane.

 

Learn how to trim your elevators, use flaps, manage your engine.

Keep in mind that you don't need full manifold pressure all the time.

The more energy the engine produces, the less maneuverable is the plane.

61 in Hg manifold pressure is for accelleration - or running away ;)

(You'll rarely need to set to WEP)

 

Check out the 'Show me your mad dogfight skills' thread.

I've posted three videos there on how to cope with the AI.

There are the track files attached.

Check them out.

Load those replays and hit Ctrl+Z (could be Y - Im not sure).

Now you can move your head in the cockpit so you can see how I set trim and flaps.

Press RCtrl+Enter to display the controls window in the lower left corner.

 

Don't get discouraged. It is pretty hard.

Like the real thing.

 

Btw.: I was flying ROF since it was released. Some guys may remember me and my belgian 'Olislagesrs' Sopwith Camel.

But I think it is more like E-sports now.

After getting into DCS I don't think I will go back to it. ;)

Edited March 6, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[DerHesse70]

Hi Konrad Friedrich!

 

Thank you for your advice! :thumbup: I will have a look at the videos.

 

I think it is good to have a strong AI (not like in ROF), but it is very frustrating at the start for a DCS P-51D noob. Especially in full real without any aids like i use to play.

 

If you don't get any success you will stop playing after a time or you lost interests. If you got a little success sometimes you keep trying more.

 

I have one question about the trim. Do you really use special trim settings for dogfighting?

 

Are my chances in learning (with some success) better in MP dogfighting or is it still harder. A real player makes more mistakes.

 

In ROF i had learnd more in MP than in SP.

 

greetings Jens

[Konrad Friedrich]

Hi Jens,

 

i agree. There should be an AI that makes it easier to actually win a fight for beginners or intermediate simmers.

And I agree that it may drives away beginners because it is too frustrating.

 

About trim:

You need to trim all the time to fly as energy efficient as you can.

Check out the track files and watch my settings.:D

Well, to be honest it's not allways about energy efficiency.

Sometimes the trim tab an flaps settings are pure plane abuse :D

But in a dogfight you really need to pull every stunt you can perform.

If you need to lower landing gear to bleed off speed to get into shooting position - than just do it :(ok, that's not a standard maneuver - but real pilots did it :-) )

 

I think you can try mp. Unfortunatelly there are not much P-51 servers...

I think you allways learn more from human players.

If you meet some nice guys they may provide you with some good tipps... after they have shot you down :music_whistling: :D

 

Maybe we can meet online?

Currently I'm a bit busy but maybe on weekends?

 

Regards,

Konrad

Edited March 6, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[DerHesse70]

Ok...i will send you a PM if i like to go MP and found no players. :thumbup:

 

Nice Le Mans pictures on your side. :smilewink:

[DerHesse70]

Yesterday i shot down my first AI easy. :D

 

The penny dropped!

 

I tried it very soft and don't use hard turns. I turned complete without flaps and saved my speed and energy better. Also my engine stayed much cooler with this flying. I put the throttle often back in dives and at the highest point of the loops.

 

I think i got it now. :smilewink:

 

Before i tried it much to hard in turns.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Feels great to defeat that AI, huh?

 

Congratulation!

:thumbup:

[DerHesse70]

Yes! :D

 

And now i will decrease the fuel weight and increase the skill of the AI.

 

Would be nice if we could play MP together in the future! I will call you and the other guys from the dogfight thread. :smilewink:

[TimmyD]

AI is still way off. I love to fly but the A/C maneuverability of the AI is way to perfect. He never makes mistakes, he always manages to out climb or out turn you and the amount of rounds I have to use to kill him is ridiculous.

 

As I said, I love to fly but come on, he hits you a few times and boom.....!! He climbs like he has an F15 (even when I am carrying more airspeed into the climb) and turns like an SU37.....!!! Let's have an option for mistakes so that some of us less hardcore fliers can build up without leaving the game in frustration. This is unrealistic to fly against every time.....once/twice yes, but not every flight.

[Fakum]

AI is still way off. I love to fly but the A/C maneuverability of the AI is way to perfect. He never makes mistakes, he always manages to out climb or out turn you and the amount of rounds I have to use to kill him is ridiculous.

 

As I said, I love to fly but come on, he hits you a few times and boom.....!! He climbs like he has an F15 (even when I am carrying more airspeed into the climb) and turns like an SU37.....!!! Let's have an option for mistakes so that some of us less hardcore fliers can build up without leaving the game in frustration. This is unrealistic to fly against every time.....once/twice yes, but not every flight.

 

DITTO!

[taps]

AI is still way off. I love to fly but the A/C maneuverability of the AI is way to perfect. He never makes mistakes, he always manages to out climb or out turn you and the amount of rounds I have to use to kill him is ridiculous.

 

As I said, I love to fly but come on, he hits you a few times and boom.....!! He climbs like he has an F15 (even when I am carrying more airspeed into the climb) and turns like an SU37.....!!! Let's have an option for mistakes so that some of us less hardcore fliers can build up without leaving the game in frustration. This is unrealistic to fly against every time.....once/twice yes, but not every flight.

 

No, you just have to practice more. Sooner or later, you'll wish the AI wasn't so easy to beat :thumbup:

[Der_Fred]

This is where IL2 was more successful in appealing to all calibre players.

A lot more options to play with.

 

You can have the hardcore settings, but you're only going to play with yourself, if you don't make allowances for all players preferences.

 

hint hint...

:)

[taps]

This is where IL2 was more successful in appealing to all calibre players.

A lot more options to play with.

 

You can have the hardcore settings, but you're only going to play with yourself, if you don't make allowances for all players preferences.

 

hint hint...

:)

 

There is Flaming Cliffs for the mass market, but the P-51 is part of the "hardcore side" of DCS that means you will have to invest a lot of time to master it. Sure it's probably a good idea for ED to program a more customizable AI, but there are dozens of other in my opinion more important issues that require ED's attention too.

 

Maybe people can dogfight online against other "non-hardcore" players, so they have a beatable opponent?

[Der_Fred]

Yeah.. but before the new-guys get to MP.. it's always nice to improve one's skills with a scalable AI

[159th_Viper]

This is where IL2 was more successful in appealing to all calibre players.

A lot more options to play with.

 

You can have the hardcore settings, but you're only going to play with yourself, if you don't make allowances for all players preferences.

 

hint hint...

:)

 

There is a Game mode, pertaining to Flight and Avionics. There are also assists. What more is needed?

 

A particularly large spoon and an attractive au pair to attend to the feeding trough?

[Der_Fred]

A particularly large spoon and an attractive au pair to attend to the feeding trough?

An attractive au pair - now there's an idea. All votes for this one !!

 

This is a game first of all.. and I'm sure ED would like a wider audience ?

[Der_Fred]

Having more 'cannon fodder' would also help boost many egos here... not that they need boosting though :megalol:

[159th_Viper]

 

This is a game first of all.. and I'm sure ED would like a wider audience ?

 

That's my point :)

 

At present the SIM caters for all possible audiences, from the Game Mode through to SIM mode with varying degrees of settings in-between.

 

Bottom-line is, when relying on the 'A.I. is omnipotent' argument, is the fact that you need more practice. If you have cranked all the assists and are still struggling, then put in the hours and you'll get there. The A.I. is beatable 100% of the time - fact.

[Fakum]

I dont think the focus on the AI should be can you beat him or not! Of course you can beat him! The problem with the AI (which is mentioned in these forums a zillion times over) is its performance! The AI can be loosing hydraulics, fuel and oil and go on forever it seems. He also seems to be able to manuever defensivley without energy loss. He can pretty much outclimb most of the time, even after he has white and black smoke trails for over 10 minutes. How can he be scissoring while im flat out on the deck going straight and not loosing distance while a wingman is on his tail trying to get a shot on him? Wheres his energy loss from the scissoring? Im getting tired of hearing about beating him, That shouldnt be the focus, why are the other facts not being addressed? Cant out run the AI while hes behind me scissoring? Come on! Thats just one of the problems,,,

[gavagai]

Is this only my impression or are there others who think that the AI is a little bit to strong for a beginner.

 

I am a average skilled ROF Player for one year and not absolutely new to flight SIMs.

 

Yesterday i bite my teeth out on it.

 

DerHesse, it didn't take me long to knock down the DCS AI P-51 in the quick combat mission. My guess is that you're immediately going for angles instead of building an energy advantage.

 

Anyway, the RoF AI flies like it's drunk.:joystick: This one puts up a fight, which is good.:thumbup:

 

----------

 

Ah, glad to see you succeeded!

[Konrad Friedrich]

Anyway, the RoF AI flies like it's drunk.:joystick: This one puts up a fight, which is good.:thumbup:

 

I agree. :smilewink:

[msalama]

A lot more options to play with.

 

Perhaps, but IL-2's AI was still full of s**t in its idiocy. Case in point: select whatever AI skill level, fire up a 1vs1 quick mission, let the AI follow you, execute a slight turn to whichever side, and witness the AI pilot expend all his ammo shooting at a point about 1 yard off your inside wing.

 

Or that was at least the situation with the latest official patch back in the day still - no idea if this was rectified later by TD and no urge to install said arcade POS game ever again to check...

[Robo.]

Or that was at least the situation with the latest official patch back in the day still - no idea if this was rectified later by TD and no urge to install said arcade POS game ever again to check...

 

TD really fixed the AI in the latest patch, you'd be surprised (and challenged!). RoF I found too easy, just flying spirals into the ground. The Mustang is not too difficult, but I remember it used to be with the 'cheating Terminator' AI in beta version. :joystick:

[Fakum]

I dont think the focus on the AI should be can you beat him or not! Of course you can beat him! The problem with the AI (which is mentioned in these forums a zillion times over) is its performance! The AI can be loosing hydraulics, fuel and oil and go on forever it seems. He also seems to be able to manuever defensivley without energy loss. He can pretty much outclimb most of the time, even after he has white and black smoke trails for over 10 minutes. How can he be scissoring while im flat out on the deck going straight and not loosing distance while a wingman is on his tail trying to get a shot on him? Wheres his energy loss from the scissoring? Im getting tired of hearing about beating him, That shouldnt be the focus, why are the other facts not being addressed? Cant out run the AI while hes behind me scissoring? Come on! Thats just one of the problems,,,

 

I must be the village idiot here! All I see is chatter about beating the AI, but nothing regarding the other facts about the AI performance when its damaged, (which by the way has been commented on in other threads with basically the same regard) I just dont understand how these points are easily dismissed? Again, just and idiot talking here, so please disregard my comments again. Just venting,,, have a nice day

[gavagai]

I must be the village idiot here! All I see is chatter about beating the AI, but nothing regarding the other facts about the AI performance when its damaged, (which by the way has been commented on in other threads with basically the same regard) I just dont understand how these points are easily dismissed? Again, just and idiot talking here, so please disregard my comments again. Just venting,,, have a nice day

 

What you say is probably true. In simulations where the AI uses the same flight and damage model as the human player, there are other weaknesses. Ultimately, the best solution is multiplayer.