Transponder Upgrade For All

[RedRain]

I don't know about you guys, but I am getting increasingly confused who is friend & foe in M/P, especially when western hardware is participating on red side and eastern hardware participating on blue side, this makes hardware id irrelevant on the battlefield. If we could have a transponder upgrade for all hardware that sqwark Id, would make this far less confusing. I don't think this would be detrimental to the authenticity of the modules as upgrades would be ongoing on the modern battle field, just a thought ?

[BIGNEWY]

I think it adds to the realism of the battle field, target identification is a key element in any sortie, and mixed factions is something modern pilots have to deal with without the use of transponders.

 

At the end of the day if you can not I.D a target you should not engage it unless fired upon.

 

edit

 

I would like to see awacs fixed so it had more of a battlefield command picture, maybe that's an alternative ?

[RedRain]

How realistic is it that KA go head to head with KA or F15 to F15 etc, etc.

 

Another example, joined a server in KA (red), two joined in SU (blue),got shot down straight away. The only way they knew I was foe, was because Of the pool listing, how realistic is that ?

Edited April 16, 2013 by RedRain

[RedRain]

Just google IFF:-

 

 

Military aircraft use a transponder just like civilian aircraft, only it has more Modes, and are referred to as Mode 1, 2, 3A, C and 4. Mode 3A is the normal 4 digit transponder, and Mode C is the altitude encoder. Modes 1, 2 & 4 are military only.

 

Right now, Mode 4 is used for military aircraft to identify each other. There are daily secret codes that must be used. If the correct code is received by the interrogating aircraft, A green reply light comes on, and a tone is generated. If the correct code is not received, a caution light will come on.

 

In the early days, the Mode 4 codes were set with a paddle with about 144 pins. We had to load the codes into the paddle every morning and go out to the airplanes and key the computers before flight.

The codes were checked by someone else, and if the person that put in the codes made a mistake, they would have to buy everyone in the shop a coke.

 

We will be going to the Mode 5 system sooner or later.

[Frostie]

How realistic is it that KA go head to head with KA or F15 to F15 etc, etc.

 

Another example, joined a server in KA (red), two joined in SU (blue),got shot down straight away. The only way they knew I was foe, was because Of the pool listing, how realistic is that ?

Why is a Ka50 going head to head with an F-15, surely the point and part of the challenge is to stay out of sight of any enemy aircraft be it an F-15 or A-10, otherwise you're dead. Check briefings for potential enemies.

If you're not on comms with anybody then the obvious thing to do is take every aircraft as enemy and avoid confrontation.

 

The Ka-50 doesn't have an IFF Interogator, it only has an IFF transponder that sends out a signal to any friendly interogator, if it was implemeted in the sim it wouldn't tell you anything you don't already know.

[RedRain]

Frostie, it reads KA on Ka or F15 on F15. All hardware to be upgraded to full IFF, it's been in aircraft since WW2.

[GGTharos]

That's because the F-15 has NCTR. While military IFF/Datalink can and will transmit aircraft type, the F-15 has additional tricks up its sleeve to identify non-cooperative targets.

 

The Ka-50 has zero such tricks, and it's all up to the pilot plus off-board sources. Might want to try working with someone or getting an AWACS to help you out.

 

Frostie, it reads KA on Ka or F15 on F15. All hardware to be upgraded to full IFF, it's been in aircraft since WW2.

[JG14_Smil]

pfft.

 

that IFF panel in the Ka-50 is just sitting there for nothing? I am not having it. I agree with RedRain.

[GGTharos]

What more do you want than being IIF'ed by a friendly?

[159th_Falcon]

Guess the possibility to set it wrong and return an "foe" signal. :joystick:

[Eddie]

There is no such thing as a "Foe" signal.

[159th_Falcon]

Bummer, how about "not friend" or "Failed to ID" ?

[Eddie]

IFF can only ever confirm friendly. An nil/incorrect reply to an IFF interrogation simply requires the initiator of the interrogation to move to the next step in the identification process in accordance with their RoE.

 

That next step could be many things from simply calling AWACS to closing for a visual ID.

[GGTharos]

... and since DCSW only ever models perfect IFF, that is what you will have. To change it could potentially cause issues with AI, among other things.

 

(And by issues, I mean people complaining about AI 'always knowing even though IFF is off' or 'SAMs should know I am friendly even if my IFF is off I just took off from here')

[159th_Falcon]

Thank's for the info Gentlemen.

[Frostie]

All hardware to be upgraded to full IFF, it's been in aircraft since WW2.

The word transponder was created during WW2 it is a combination of Transmit-Responder, all it does is transmit a response.

 

Since WW2 aircraft have been fitted with transponders to let ground radar systems know that they are friends, any aircraft fitted with an interrogator system can get a response from these transponders aswell, but the actual aircraft carrying the transponders know nothing. The transponder is an automatic system that automatically triggers when interrogated by transmitting a response to the interrogator. Transponders do not interrogate they are automatically responsive that is all they do.

 

 

The system runs like this an 'Interrogator' (Su-27) transmits a signal to a 'Transponder' (Ka50), the 'Transponder' automatically transmits a response back to the 'Interrogator' telling it that it is a friend.

 

The Su27 will have its own transponder but the Ka50 doesn't have an interrogator to direct at the Su27. There is no way a Ka50 can know that the Su27 is a friend other than through radio communication or visual.

[RedRain]

Working IFF or not, my main point is friend or foe identification. Once I have a clear enough visual on a piece of hardware, and am able to identify it, comes the decision weather to attack or not. Eg, if aim flying a ka50 and visually I'd another ka50, I would be expecting Ivan to be piloting it and not Joe so I would wave him good day and continue on. However, If I am flying a ka50 and I positively I'd a Bradley I would expect Joe to be driving it and not Ivan, and would proceed to make an attack. However, and perhaps this is more a mission design thing, Ivan appears to be driving Bradley's as much as Joe, and Joe appears to be piloting ka50 as much as Ivan. Due to this, it appears that hardware I'd is null & void as you can't decifer wheather Ivan is driving or Joe. Hence, i feel it is not hardware I'd that is fundamental in this scenario, but the ability to be able to I'd Joe from Ivan. This is the reason I suggest full IFF be implemented or am I missing something here ?

 

I feel I am participating in a football match where ALL players are wearing different coloured kit, who do I pass the ball to ?

Edited April 17, 2013 by RedRain

[GGTharos]

You're missing something ... namely, the Ka-50 has no IFF interrogator. Create your own IFF matrix to figure out what's friendly and what's not - ie. which way is it facing, where's it going, who's it shooting, is it talking to you on TS/radio, etc.

[RedRain]

You're missing something ... namely, the Ka-50 has no IFF interrogator. Create your own IFF matrix to figure out what's friendly and what's not - ie. which way is it facing, where's it going, who's it shooting, is it talking to you on TS/radio, etc.

 

So are you informing me that hardware id is in fact null & void when it comes to friend & foe id ?

 

If I am flying in red team, it does not specifically mean that I am hunting down western hardware or vice versa ?

 

Specifically, id is all down to hardware orientation & direction of travel ?

 

If hardware is not shooting at me but something else, how do I know its targeting friend or foe, if hardware id is null & void ?

 

Why cant the ka50 be upgraded with a working IFF interrogator, its a reasonable new craft (early 80's I believe) ?

 

What if few or non at all are participating in teamspeak ?

 

Were a bit slow here in the tropics, please enlighten me as I still feel I am missing something.

 

Tnks & Rgds

 

Red :unsure:

[GGTharos]

So are you informing me that hardware id is in fact null & void when it comes to friend & foe id ?

 

Some of it may be.

 

If I am flying in red team, it does not specifically mean that I am hunting down western hardware or vice versa ?

 

Specifically, id is all down to hardware orientation & direction of travel ?

 

If hardware is not shooting at me but something else, how do I know its targeting friend or foe, if hardware id is null & void ?

 

Maybe, maybe not? How about you gain some situational awareness? Why ask me? You're the one in the chopper. Why don't you know where your guys are?

 

Why cant the ka50 be upgraded with a working IFF interrogator, its a reasonable new craft (early 80's I believe) ?

 

Because it does not have one.

[RedRain]

I have received some great info from this community, but find some of the senior members somewhat arrogant. I am well passed middle aged, reasonable new to computers, and even newer to online gaming so I need all the assistance I can get. Pleading for help, I receive the below vague and arrogant response from an ED representative who did not have to respond if he I did not choose so ?

 

Originally Posted by RedRain

So are you informing me that hardware id is in fact null & void when it comes to friend & foe id ?

 

Some of it may be. Well that's clear and informative ?

 

If I am flying in red team, it does not specifically mean that I am hunting down western hardware or vice versa ?

 

Specifically, id is all down to hardware orientation & direction of travel ?

 

If hardware is not shooting at me but something else, how do I know its targeting friend or foe, if hardware id is null & void ?

 

Maybe, maybe not? More great informative info ? How about you gain some situational awareness?I have 6048 x 1080, I think I have plenty? Why ask me?Who am I supposed to ask ? You're the one in the chopper who said I was in a chopper,KA50 was an example. Why don't you know where your guys are?Thats why I am asking here ?

 

Why cant the ka50 be upgraded with a working IFF interrogator, its a reasonable new craft (early 80's I believe) ?

Because it does not have one. I am well aware it does not have one, which was the whole purpose of the thread (CAN WE GET AN UPGRADE RETRO FITTED TO THE HARDWARE THAT DOES NOT HAVE IFF)?

 

Now please close this thread, no point knockin if there aint no one in.

[Kaiza]

So are you informing me that hardware id is in fact null & void when it comes to friend & foe id ?

 

If I am flying in red team, it does not specifically mean that I am hunting down western hardware or vice versa ?

 

Specifically, id is all down to hardware orientation & direction of travel ?

 

If hardware is not shooting at me but something else, how do I know its targeting friend or foe, if hardware id is null & void ?

 

Why cant the ka50 be upgraded with a working IFF interrogator, its a reasonable new craft (early 80's I believe) ?

 

What if few or non at all are participating in teamspeak ?

 

Were a bit slow here in the tropics, please enlighten me as I still feel I am missing something.

 

Tnks & Rgds

 

Red :unsure:

 

IFF interogators are fancy pieces of specialist hardware normally combined with a RADAR system. If the aircraft doesnt have a RADAR it wont normally have an IFF interrogator. You will generally only find the system on aircraft designed for airborne early warning or beyond visual range air to air engagements. The A-10 doesnt have one either.

 

It seems to be a pretty common misconception on these forums. You aren't missing anything by not having a Mode 4 transponder modeled (at least until we get an aircraft (or ship etc) with an IFF interrogator).

[RedRain]

Thanks Kaiza and most of the others, I am beginning to understand some of the limitations associated with the DCS software now. Still a little confused with the jumble of hardware that is mixed in some mission designs though, regarding friend & foe identification ?

[Kaiza]

Its not a limitation of the software really. ED are quite capable of implementing it, there is just no point.

 

Basically IFF has two components. An interrogator and a transponder. Most military aircraft (including the KA50 and A-10) have a transponder only. i.e. The real aircraft only have a transponder.

 

Think of it like this:

 

The interrogator is the "asker". It asks the question: "Are you friendly?"

 

The transponder answers either "Yes" or doesn't respond at all. A transponder can answer the question, but it can't ask it. So IFF (despite its confusing name) can only determine whether something is friendly if you have an interrogator, and it cannot determine if something is enemy (this is an important concept).

 

So if your aircraft has an interrogator you can "ask" other aircraft whether they are friendly. If you only have a transponder you cannot, you can only "answer" questions.

 

As you can see, there is no point in ED modelling the transponder to "answer the question" if their currently exists not human controlled aircraft to ever "ask it".

 

Make sense?

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kaiza

[pyromaniac4002]

Kaiza pretty much nailed everything there is to know about IFF, but as far as identifying whether another chopper/etc. is friend or foe, you just gotta get in close enough for a look at the paint job or see that he's in the process of attacking you. There's really no getting around it. Asking AWACS could help, but half of the online games don't have one and sometimes it seems a little finicky to me, so I'd just be prepared to be self-sufficient.