Haswell released today

[cichlidfan]

As soon as PC gaming dies the consoles will follow.

 

Which is why the new offering from MS is not specifically targeting the gaming crowd.

[dotChuckles]

I thought the point of this chip is that it is much more efficient, giving it more overhead to take an over-clock and yield higher performance on the -k variants.

 

Is that the case or have I misunderstood something?

[SkateZilla]

Most Haswell chips can run 5 Ghz on .990mv (less than a volt)

[dotChuckles]

So that would make it a better choice then an Ivybridge? (speccing a new high end system at the moment).

[SkateZilla]

Depends, Haswell will require LGA 1150 Boards,

 

So if you want to upgrade to Haswell from SB or IB, it's not worth it, to buy a new board and new CPU for minimal performance gains, and less power consumption.

 

if your running 1st Gen Core iX chips, then maybe.

[EtherealN]

PC Gaming is on a Decline because not everyone wants to deal with or can solve driver and software issues that come with it.

 

I don't quite agree here. During the heyday of PC games, half a million units sold was actually pretty good. (I was a shareholder in DICE back then, and worked as a game reviewer for PC Gamer, so I saw multiple sides of this.)

 

The big deal here in my opinion isn't so much a "decline" of PC Gaming, rather a decline in market share as consoles (being the easy-to-use entertainment systems you describe compared to PC's) became mainstream. So while there's no "decline" in the PC gaming market measured in "real dollars", there's been a decline compared to the overall gaming market - the market share. This has then had the effect that the traditionally "nerdy" PC Gamer market has become marginalized. (Especially when combined with how the demands have increased, where what used to be an "awesome" product as far as development complexity goes is now considered amateurish and not worth a moment's consideration even though it took way more work than the games we loved back when "the PC" was strong and dominant.)

 

Think of it like the early days of automobiles; the luxury car market found itself "marginalized" after Ford, but not because people stopped purchasing luxury cars, rather because a lot of other "normal" people started buying cars, and the real money as far as automobiles are concerned was then no longer found in the luxury cars causing the industry overall to no longer pander to the luxury market.

 

Another case in point is that it is WAY easier to solve PC game problems today than it was back in "the good old days". You don't even have to make boot disks anymore, and "plug and play" is actually somewhat more than the colloquial "plug and pray". :P But compared to consoles - yeah... The PC will always be too heterogenous in it's design to capture the majority, pretty much by definition. The very same freedom we love in building our machines is the same thing that dooms us in the marketplace compared to consoles. (And I do recall people like John Carmack praising the Xbox dev environment as the best he has ever used... When someone like him says that, it's a serious condemnation of the PC as a gaming platform. Sad, but true.)

Edited June 5, 2013 by EtherealN

[SkateZilla]

So the actual Sales havent "declined" but the Percentage of PC Gamers to Console Gamers have :p.

 

 

At least people dont have to make HiMem Boot Disks for Every Game... Spoiled.

[pacotito]

Most Haswell chips can run 5 Ghz on .990mv (less than a volt)

 

Cpuz needed to be updated to read haswell voltage correctly. So most likely the high clock/low voltage over clock is an error.

 

Asus guys and Linus both said this:

@4.6Ghz/1.15V is a great chip if stable.

@4.6Ghz/1.2v is a good chip if stable.

@4.6 Ghz/1.2v is meh only booting into windows.

@4.6/1.2v is a bad chip if it crash

[SkateZilla]

Funny, i said that when the first overclocks were coming out (That CPUZ isnt reading the mv correctly)

 

and I got bashed on the overclocking forums.

 

Lol, I knew something was fishy, with the Chip now having a on DIE VRM as well now...

[pacotito]

http://cdn3.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/4770K-4.3-GHz-OC.jpg

 

Here is a link with both hwmonitor and cpuz voltages.

[TZeer]

Most Haswell chips can run 5 Ghz on .990mv (less than a volt)

 

I'm curios to see where you have that from...

 

The reviews I have seen isn't even close to that performance.

 

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/core_i7_4770k_review,26.html

 

Here's another subtlety you should know about, when Intel released Ivy Bridge people noticed that Ivy Bridge processors overheat quite fast once you pass 1.30 Volts on the processor, which has everything to do with the TIM / Intel Heat-spreader used. It has been widely discussed by many of you. With that in mind I was a little surprized to see that with Haswell, Intel decided to ignore the critique and applies exactly the same methodology.

 

Overclocking wise Intel did open up a set of new overclocking options. But the end result remains similar to Ivy Bridge. Now, overall we do have to say that the ease of overclocking with K model 4770 processors remains impressive. You'll reach +4.5 GHz real fast. But sure, be advised and get some proper cooling to achieve and maintain acceptable temperatures. The bottom line is that once you pass 1.30 Volts on the processor, heat becomes an issue real fast.

 

 

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/61451-intel-haswell-i7-4770k-i5-4670k-review-26.html

 

With all of that taken into account, how did we fare in our first tentative Haswell overclocking steps? Not as well as hoped unfortunately. This is no fault of the components (the MSI Z87-G45 Gaming provided an excellent platform) or the architecture but rather one of timing. We only had about two hours or so to achieve the best results and using a maximum Override voltage of 1.255V along with air cooling won’t grant all that much headroom. And yet, our ES chip easily hit a speed of 4.5GHz without going over the 75 degree level on a Noctua NH-U12S.

 

 

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/01/intel_haswell_i74770k_ipc_overclocking_review/7#.Ua9wlEAwoZA

 

Here we see our i7-4770K running at a very stable 4.5GHz/1866MHz with a "very low" 1.136v Core Voltage. Our per-core temperatures of 63C to 67C, are staying well within manageable parameters. Worth keeping in mind here is that it has been reported to us that some 4770K processors have required 1.2v to maintain stability at 4.3GHz.

 

If you really want to get crazy, which we did, we pushed to see if we could get anything stable at the 5GHz mark. What you cannot see above is the system set to 50x100, but you can see the extremely high 1.472v vCore (1.45v set in BIOS). Using Prime95 to stress this setting (we are only using Aida64 in this screenshot to monitor the temperature and load), you can see the insanely high core temperatures and the throttling of the CPU clock. Getting this particular system stable at 5GHz with this load seemed to be luck after dealing with plenty of BSODs at 4.9GHz.

 

The fact of the matter is that even though Aida64 shows my system to be "stable," this is not true. All you have to do is start Handbrake, and use it to encode a Bluray rip at 1080P and the system will hard-lock. Your mileage may vary, but I am going to stay old school in terms of how we decide if hardware is "stable."

[EtherealN]

At least people dont have to make HiMem Boot Disks for Every Game... Spoiled.

 

Spoiled indeed!

 

I had so much trouble getting both sound AND mouse to work with Ultima VII. :D

[SkateZilla]

Getting enough to Run 640x480 SVGA VESA Driver, Sound Blaster 32 AWE and the GAME PORT, Mouse and Still have to load the CD Drive (due to game spooling from CD).

 

Falcon 3.0 took me 3 weeks of Code,, Boot, Test, Edit, Code.

 

i think i Finally got tips from a group of Guys that flew it regularly via 3rd party chit chat that led me to a Falcon 3.0 BBS.

 

now Kids are spoiled with Google.

[HiJack]

Good review of ASUS Z87-PRO Motherboard

http://techreport.com/review/24890/asus-z87-pro-motherboard-reviewed

[dotChuckles]

Depends, Haswell will require LGA 1150 Boards,

 

So if you want to upgrade to Haswell from SB or IB, it's not worth it, to buy a new board and new CPU for minimal performance gains, and less power consumption.

 

if your running 1st Gen Core iX chips, then maybe.

 

Thanks. Good advice.

[HiJack]

Seams like the 4770K is getting way to hot when clocked over 4.2GHz.

[pacotito]

Yeah from what I've read the Asus reps recommended high end watercooling over 4.2 or @1.2v

[SkateZilla]

Intel needs to stop using Cheap TIM on their Heatspreaders.

 

I wonder if they are Glued or Soldered on.

[july865]

gaming, gamers, and yes gaming pc's will and have always pushed the chip makers for bigger and faster. they will always do this. not too many industries do this on a continual basis. seldom will you use 8 cores for any data base queries, web surfing etc, etc.

imho pc's will continue this for many years to come. its a tidal flow. we are experiencing an ebb tide. ride it out.

[HiJack]

Just need to try this new CPU and ordered an CPU upgrade and some addon gear today:

 

Motherboard: ASUS Z87-PLUS, Socket-1150

CPU: Intel® Core i7-4770K Processor

MEMORY: Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR3 2133MHz CL9 4x8GB

DISK: Samsung SSD 840 PROSeries 256GB 2.5" OEM

PSU: Corsair TX 850W PSU

FAN COOLER: Noctua NH-U14S CPU Kjøler

USB sound: Creative SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 PRO - USB 2.0, THX TruStudio PRO, Dolby Digital Live, PowerDVD, Remote

Head set: ASUS Vulcan PRO

 

Should go greate with my Sapphire 7970 :D

[EtherealN]

Intel needs to stop using Cheap TIM on their Heatspreaders.

 

I wonder if they are Glued or Soldered on.

 

Hm, but I remember reading somthing about it actually not being the TIM that was the problem on Ivy. I know it was the first (and initially most likely suspect), but I have this vague memory of reading some results that said it wasn't. I don't remember where I read it though - you know anything conclusive about that controversy?

[_Dredd]

Doesn't look that good. Save a few hundred bucks more and you can get a 3930k.

[SkateZilla]

Hm, but I remember reading somthing about it actually not being the TIM that was the problem on Ivy. I know it was the first (and initially most likely suspect), but I have this vague memory of reading some results that said it wasn't. I don't remember where I read it though - you know anything conclusive about that controversy?

 

Ivy from what i saw was the TIM Between the Chip and the Heatspreader,

 

Most people solved their issue by carefully removing the heatspreader and TIM.

 

I know people that saw their load temps cut in half by replacing the rock hard TIM Intel uses with Artic MX2/MX4

( I dont recommend using Artic Silver 5 on exposed die, same applies for GPUs, dont use AS5, use MX-4 as it's non conductive).

 

I've delided at least 5 Ivy Bridge CPUs from Builds that I've done for people, after they had temp problems after the burn in period. Load temps dropped 30-50% on all of them.

 

We actually left the HeatSpreader off of one build, as we opted to use EK Direct Contact water block, his temps dropped under load from 85^C to 46^C and using the same cooler, from 85 to 62^C

 

 

http://www.techpowerup.com/164858/ivy-bridge-temperatures-could-be-linked-to-tim-inside-integrated-heatspreader-report.html

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Water-Cooling-IHS-Intel-Ivy,21744.html

 

IE: (Nevermind the fact that he's the most unsafe person I know, using a Razor in the fashion that he is)

 

Edited June 7, 2013 by SkateZilla

[cichlidfan]

Just need to try this new CPU and ordered an CPU upgrade and some addon gear today:

 

Motherboard: ASUS Z87-PLUS, Socket-1150

CPU: Intel® Core i7-4770K Processor

MEMORY: Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR3 2133MHz CL9 4x8GB

DISK: Samsung SSD 840 PROSeries 256GB 2.5" OEM

PSU: Corsair TX 850W PSU

FAN COOLER: Noctua NH-U14S CPU Kjøler

USB sound: Creative SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 PRO - USB 2.0, THX TruStudio PRO, Dolby Digital Live, PowerDVD, Remote

Head set: ASUS Vulcan PRO

 

Should go greate with my Sapphire 7970 :D

 

Once again, I have to ask...why after all the money in this, did you choose to save $50 and get a Bronze rated PSU?

[EtherealN]

Thanks Skate!

 

And totally agreed with Cichlidfan. This habit people have of spending wads of cash on their computers and then getting budgety on power supplies is silly. After mobo and CPU, the power supply is the most important component in a build, IMO.