EAC? *NOOB ALERT*

[porky_pig]

I have uncaged the altitude indicator first, I uncage it like it tells you to in the training mission. I have done exactly what the training mission tells you to do from ramp start. I went through the training mission again to see if I had missed anything and it turns off in the training mission. However, as soon as I do ramp start from the create fast mission it won't switch off untill I am in the air for a few minutes. Are you talking about the auto trim on the left side because I have also switched those 4 switches forwards just like it says in the training mission.

 

Should I make a track file and upload it here?

Yeah, upload a track file. Also, I should point out that I learned how to do this by creating my own checklist from doing the interactive training. I guess I should also ask if you have another switch assigned to the EAC and have the joystick set up to be synced with the cockpit on startup, because it may be causing a conflict.

Edited June 22, 2013 by porky_pig

[Eddie]

Thats my experience, and yes I have worked on these aircraft (cessnas) before. In the vid I posted earlier, prove to me I did something wrong and that EAC wasnt switched on, and EGI wasnt activated.

 

I suggest you get hold of a checklist. You'll find the startup much quicker if you learn and follow the correct process.

 

You could have easily performed a full EGI alignment in the time you spent on the startup in your video, had you performed the start procedure correctly.

 

You made numerous errors in the startup flow, and even had your right engine stagnate on start because you failed to enable the APU generator after APU start. A problem that would also have not presented had you enabled the main generators before engine start as you should have.

 

There is no flow, or sense to your actions in the cockpit and it is clear from the many hesitations that you do not fully understand the process, in what order things are required, or why.

 

Furthermore the very thing you're telling people to do, that is pull the jet forward, is in itself unnecessary. If you simply set the EGI to "NAV" on the CDU/CDU repeater it would cut the alignment short anyway. Again, not that is is necessary, because the 5 mins you spent on the ground is ample time to accomplish a full EGI alignment.

 

Then you go ahead and take the time to run a pre-takeoff BIT of the IFFCC and wait for it to run. This is bizarre, given that were that BIT any more than a scripted procedure it'd fail because it requires the EGI to be aligned and EAC to be enabled.

[porky_pig]

Here's an unedited video of my first start-up last night.

Note there's plenty of time to waste. When Looking up I was sipping a beer :smilewink:

Time to taxi was 5 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxgzTWMy1g&feature=youtu.be

 

By the way, what's the method to paste the video in the forum?

The button located here, and the tag after the v= in the youtube link.

[porky_pig]

I suggest you get hold of a checklist. You'll find the startup much quicker if you learn and follow the correct process.

 

You could have easily performed a full EGI alignment in the time you spent on the startup in your video, had you performed the start procedure correctly.

 

You made numerous errors in the startup flow, and even had your right engine stagnate on start because you failed to enable the APU generator after APU start. A problem that would also have not presented had you enabled the main generators before engine start as you should have.

 

There is no flow, or sense to your actions in the cockpit and it is clear from the many hesitations that you do not fully understand the process, in what order things are required, or why.

 

Furthermore the very thing you're telling people to do, that is pull the jet forward, is in itself unnecessary. If you simply set the EGI to "NAV" on the CDU/CDU repeater it would cut the alignment short anyway. Again, not that is is necessary, because the 5 mins you spent on the ground is ample time to accomplish a full EGI alignment.

 

Then you go ahead and take the time to run a pre-takeoff BIT of the IFFCC and wait for it to run. This is bizarre, given that were that BIT any more than a scripted procedure it'd fail because it requires the EGI to be aligned and EAC to be enabled.

I know it wasnt a perfect startup, I havent done a startup in this aircraft in a few months and Im going off of memory, so Im a bit rusty with it. But I still got the aircraft spooled up and ready for taxi/takeoff in 5 minutes...without a ground alignment.

 

Then you go ahead and take the time to run a pre-takeoff BIT of the IFFCC and wait for it to run. This is bizarre, given that were that BIT any more than a scripted procedure it'd fail because it requires the EGI to be aligned and EAC to be enabled.

Then that makes it a bug, right? Edited June 22, 2013 by porky_pig

[Dudester22]

Here is the track to see what I am doing wrong.

startup.trk

[Hamblue]

What you are doing wrong is hitting the NAV button (CDU) and EGI too early

Notice that once you hit them the Alignment count stopped at 2.0.5.6 on the CDU display.

 

The correct method is to leave those buttons alone until the Count stops at 4.0.0.8 and flashes. Then you hit the NAV followed by the EGI and then switch the EAC from off to ARM.

[Hamblue]

Another thing you can do to speed things up is Start the APU right away followed by the 2 switches under the cdu and the 3 switches below the left MFCD. This will get the electronics and alignment going and take the least time.

[porky_pig]

Here is the track to see what I am doing wrong.

First, you started your generators before the engines were spooled. Not a killer, but they should be in sync after the engine is started up, before you kill the APU. Thats why your warning horn was going off.

 

You are taking off unaligned, that is your problem. You are waiting on the ground nav to align itself. Im gonna post my track with me following my basic startup procedure. Take a look and see if this works for you...

 

edit: I should warn you not to follow this procedure if -and only if- you have gps guided munitions like the GBU series and the WCMD CBU series. The AGM-65s are aligned the same way the A-10 is aligned, via gyros, but it wouldnt hurt to align them on the ground either. You can also do an inflight alignment if you do it this way, but it gets complicated like I showed you in this track.

startup take 2.trk

Edited June 22, 2013 by porky_pig

[kk0425]

Wow. :doh:

I'm no expert on the A-10, but that was my thought too.

 

As soon as the CDU and EGI are powered on it begins the ground alignment. As others have said, you need to wait until it says 4.0.0.8 on the CDU which takes about 4 minutes. After that press Nav on the CDU, then on the dash (kind of hidden behind the stick) you push EGI. Now under the throttle is a switch called EAC. You switch that to ARM. That's it for the alignment process. It's worked flawlessly for me hundreds of times like that.

 

No need to move the plane before you do that, otherwise it does an in-flight alignment which isn't as accurate and takes longer.

[Eddie]

I know it wasnt a perfect startup, I havent done a startup in this aircraft in a few months and Im going off of memory, so Im a bit rusty with it. But I still got the aircraft spooled up and ready for taxi/takeoff in 5 minutes...without a ground alignment.

 

But the point is, that you should be performing a full alignment before taxi/takeoff. And it should take no more than 5 mins to accomplish anyway. Hell, you can do it in 4 mins and 15 seconds give or take a second if you hit the switches in the right order and a rapid start is your aim.

 

Then that makes it a bug, right?

 

No. None of the avionics BIT or other system tests actually do anything in DCS, they are all scripted and don't actually test anything.

 

First, you started your generators before the engines were spooled. Not a killer, but they should be in sync after the engine is started up, before you kill the APU. Thats why your warning horn was going off.

 

Actually, the generators should be the 5th and 6th switches you touch during startup, even before the battery. In reality they, along with the boost pumps are often turned on by the crew chief before the pilot even enters the aircraft.

 

I strongly suggest people download and read the A-10C checklist here. It is written to mirror the real world A-10C checklists as far as possible (with only items not applicable to or modelled in DCS omitted).

[porky_pig]

But the point is, that you should be performing a full alignment before taxi/takeoff. And it should take no more than 5 mins to accomplish anyway. Hell, you can do it in 4 mins and 15 seconds give or take a second if you hit the switches in the right order and a rapid start is your aim.

 

 

 

No. None of the avionics BIT or other system tests actually do anything in DCS, they are all scripted and don't actually test anything.

 

 

 

Actually, the generators should be the 5th and 6th switches you touch during startup, even before the battery. In reality they, along with the boost pumps are often turned on by the crew chief before the pilot even enters the aircraft.

 

I strongly suggest people download and read the A-10C checklist here. It is written to mirror the real world A-10C checklists as far as possible (with only items not applicable to or modelled in DCS omitted).

When I was attending ExpressJets flight simulator in Houston a few years ago, they showed me the appropriate steps in their Embraer 141 simulator how to do an engine start. I started off working on these aircraft, and have done several ramp starts and taxis in these aircraft. I remember that the APU starts first, then the high tension ignition, then fuel, before the engines spool up. Both generators have to be running in sync at 400hz before you can kill the APU, but they shouldnt be turned on before engine start, and they have to be up and running so the FADEC can do its job. Ill admit its been a few years since Ive worked at ExpressJet, but its very similar to the C-130J simulator I tried out here at the Lockheed plant where I work at...except there are a few more generators on the C-130 than the E141. Like I said though, I want to know more about why they have to function so I have a better understanding of all this. Im working on getting a commercial pilots license by the time I leave Lockheed.

[Eddie]

Forget procedures for civil aircraft, or any other aircraft type. You need to learn the procedures for the A-10C and only the A-10C. Each and every aircraft has differences from the next.

 

As I said, read the checklist I linked to above.

[IdleBoards]

You probably mean EMB-145, but I digress.

 

The A-10 is not an ERJ, and it does not operate like an ERJ.

 

In the A-10, its perfectly normal to have the engine generator switches on prior to engine start. The electrical system logic prevents the generator line contactors from closing until the IDG/CSD is operating within limits during engine start.

 

About the alignment, moving the aircraft prior to acheiving a full gyrocompass alignment automatically transitions the EGI into NAV mode, which is exactly the same as pressing the NAV button on the CDU repeater.

[Dudester22]

Yes all working fine now with some good help. Now I just have to learn all the other stuff lol. Cheers!!

[porky_pig]

You probably mean EMB-145, but I digress.

 

The A-10 is not an ERJ, and it does not operate like an ERJ.

 

In the A-10, its perfectly normal to have the engine generator switches on prior to engine start. The electrical system logic prevents the generator line contactors from closing until the IDG/CSD is operating within limits during engine start.

 

About the alignment, moving the aircraft prior to acheiving a full gyrocompass alignment automatically transitions the EGI into NAV mode, which is exactly the same as pressing the NAV button on the CDU repeater.

There are several variants of the same airframe. The 147s have winglets, the 145s dont. The 141 has 3 aisles and its very cramped, while the 145s and 147s have more leg room. The 147 is the rich mans version of the 145. I used to work there before SkyWest bought them out.

[IdleBoards]

Uhhhhhhh, ok...

[Harzach]

I strongly suggest people download and read the A-10C checklist...

 

Thanks for sharing, Eddie! I've got a stack of checklists here, all different. Now I have one all-inclusive checklist I know I can trust.

[Hamblue]

Does it have a GAU8? If no than it's still not an A-10.

[porky_pig]

So I have yet to have anyone tell me why -besides the checklist- my way works.

Correct me if I am wrong, but its the gyro that controls the yaw axis autopilot, right? The pitot tube and pitot static port control the elevation and the velocity and rate of climb? The attitude indicator controls the pitch and roll axises? Yes, I am being serious here. If I dont know, then I want to learn. Knowing how something works is not greater than knowing why it has to work.

Ive posted a video of a poor startup (but combat ready in 5 minutes) and a track file of a good startup (and combat ready in 4 minutes). Im not baiting anybody here, but nobody has proven to me that my procedure doesnt work.

 

There isnt a single reason why you dont start the A-10 just like any other jet aircraft. There isnt a single reason why you cant align by gyro prior to takeoff and bypass the ground nav alignment in the CDU. These are instruments that have been in use for years before GPS satellites came into service. Ive merely pointed out that you dont need to do a CDU alignment on the ground before taking off, so besides the fact that its in the checklist, Id like to know why my method doesnt work -but does-

[porky_pig]

Does it have a GAU8? If no than it's still not an A-10.

There are several types of aircraft that use the TF34 engines the A-10 carries. You take the gun out of the A-10, what do you have? An S-3 Viking? Sikhorsky S72? Any number of Bombardier aircraft? They all use a gyroscope, pitot tube, static ports, angle of attack indicator, and a few other instruments that the A-10A/C carries.

[Hamblue]

And they all implement the equipment differently.

[Eddie]

You do, or rather should, start the A-10C like at other jet aircraft. Military jet aircraft that is, not civil.

 

It should, if doing things properly take 10-15 minute to start the aircraft, not 5. An in flight alignment takes longer than a ground alignment, and require GPS to be accurate. It also not possible to conduct the many preflight tests and checks prior to a full and proper EGI alignment.

 

The 4 min alignment (less than half the time needed for some aircraft, such as the F-16), is going on the background while you accomplish other tasks, which take longer than 4 minutes when properly conducted.

 

There are a multitude of technical reasons why your way is not correct. Some are modelled and applicable to DCS, other are not. As someone who claims to be involved in aviation, albeit only civil, I'd except you to be able to work out for yourself why your way is not correct and why you don't go simply making up your own procedures.

 

At the end of the day, you are free do what you like. But please don't spread bad habits to those who are struggling to learn and understand the systems. It only serves to muddy the waters further and pull them off the right track.

 

As for your comments about gyros, pilots, and attitude indicators. Frankly I can't work out what you're trying to get at. The EGI provides position, heading, and attitude data for the CICU and IFFCC using laser ring gyros, positional data from the gyro is blended with GPS data where available to ensure accuracy over time. Just like any other military aircraft with a GPS/INS system. In case of EGI failure, the HARS is available to provide attitude and heading data.

[porky_pig]

And they all implement the equipment differently.

But they all do the same job at the end of the day.

 

You do, or rather should, start the A-10C like at other jet aircraft. Military jet aircraft that is, not civil.

 

There are a multitude of technical reasons why your way is not correct. Some are modelled and applicable to DCS, other are not. As someone who claims to be involved in aviation, albeit only civil, I'd except you to be able to work out for yourself why your way is not correct and why you don't go simply making up your own procedures.

My last track was very close to the aircraft startup training mission. If the training mission is wrong, then it needs to be revised.

At the end of the day, you are free do what you like. But please don't spread bad habits to those who are struggling to learn and understand the systems. It only serves to muddy the waters further and pull them off the right track.

The mission is to get the aircraft in the air, right? This is merely a starting point, as its merely a starting point for me.

As for your comments about gyros, pilots, and attitude indicators. Frankly I can't work out what you're trying to get at. The EGI provides position, heading, and attitude data for the CICU and IFFCC using laser ring gyros, positional data from the gyro is blended with GPS data where available to ensure accuracy over time. Just like any other military aircraft with a GPS/INS system. In case of EGI failure, the HARS is available to provide attitude and heading data.

Triple redundancy, right? These instruments actually perform the same function in civil aviation . My point is that these instruments are minimum equipment list for the autopilot to function, and it works. If there is a better procedure, Id like to know about it, which is why Im asking. My way works. My way is not perfect. There is always a better way, thats my logic.

[shagrat]

 

The mission is to get the aircraft in the air, right? This is merely a starting point, as its merely a starting point for me.

(...) My way works. My way is not perfect. There is always a better way, thats my logic.

if you tried this attitude in military flight training you would have been fired after the first few hours. It is about following procedures, to ensure you and especially the aircraft survives.

The better way you talk about may lead to a misalignment of the EGI and a bad SPI coordinates for a GBU-38 (JDAM)!!! After the bomb killed friendlies or innocent civillians you'll need to explain what you did when court martialed... good luck, and thank God it is only a sim:doh:

[shagrat]

The EAC is tied in with the attitude indicator (you have to uncage it first), the magnetic gyro (the compass on the center console), and the radar altitude and autopilot activation switches (the 4 switches on the left console outboard the left throttle). The attitude indicator must be uncaged first, and the aircrafts gyro compass at least aligned. All of the other switches should be in the forward position before taking off. This is because the EAC is a part of the autopilot system - it stabilizes your aircraft when you pull the trigger through its first stage before you fire your gun. This is why you dont need to be ground aligned.

 

To go a bit further into this, the autopilot is not dependant on the GPS system for guidance. Its all controlled by the magnetic gyro, and its this magnetic gyro that controls the autopilot servos that make adjustments to the control surface cables and hydraulics. The aircraft has to know what attitude it is currently in, its approximate altitude, and roughly what direction it is headed in order for the autopilot to function correctly. To give you an idea of how ridiculously easy that sounds, even small aircraft like Cessna 172s have the same magnetic compass that wont allow autopilot to work if the instrument is dead.

 

Wow! I never new the Cessna 172 has a firing solution computation system attached to the gyro compass and GPS... :music_whistling:

 

You also missed to read the wiki and the part about the SAS and the EAC. PAC uses the SAS to stabilize and counter recoil from the gun. EAC uses the SAS to do the "autopilot" part, in conjunction with the EGI and IFFC etc. I highly recommend to RTFM and understand (!) the systems you talk about :book:

 

This is no Cessna hobbyplane simulator...