EAC? *NOOB ALERT*

[porky_pig]

if you tried this attitude in military flight training you would have been fired after the first few hours. It is about following procedures, to ensure you and especially the aircraft survives.

The better way you talk about may lead to a misalignment of the EGI and a bad SPI coordinates for a GBU-38 (JDAM)!!! After the bomb killed friendlies or innocent civillians you'll need to explain what you did when court martialed... good luck, and thank God it is only a sim:doh:

Where did I say it was ok to takeoff without a prealigned EGI with GPS guided munitions?

[IdleBoards]

The checklist is the right way to do it. What is ambiguous about that?

 

Eddie's point is correct, you shouldn't be telling other people how to do things if you dont know what you're doing.

 

You're right about the way things are generally done in an RJ, but you seem to have trouble accepting that it's not the same in the A-10.

 

The EGI alignment is for the INS and is independent of the GPS, so your point about older airplanes not using GPS isn't applicable. If you want to expedite the EGI alignment, you should use a BATH or SH alignment under the ALT ALIGN page. An In-Flight alignment is by far the slowest method. Not to mention that it's not really simulated properly in DCS.

[porky_pig]

Wow! I never new the Cessna 172 has a firing solution computation system attached to the gyro compass and GPS... :music_whistling:

 

You also missed to read the wiki and the part about the SAS and the EAC. PAC uses the SAS to stabilize and counter recoil from the gun. EAC uses the SAS to do the "autopilot" part, in conjunction with the EGI and IFFC etc. I highly recommend to RTFM and understand (!) the systems you talk about :book:

 

This is no Cessna hobbyplane simulator...

Im here to learn, and Im taking it all in stride. What is not needed is the arrogant bullshit you are presenting to me. The Cessna has a gyro, the A-10 has a gyro. The Cessnas have an Attidude Indicator with the windshield crank hanging out in the air stream, the A-10 has an AI with a windshield crank hanging out of the air stream as well. I am merely pointing out the fact that there are a lot of civilian aircraft that share the same instruments, and if you cant take that for what it is -A REFERENCE ONLY- then you should get your head examined. They perform the exact same functions with blatantly obvious exceptions. I understand that, and what I dont understand is what I am asking here right now. But thanks for the smartass comment.

[porky_pig]

The checklist is the right way to do it. What is ambiguous about that?

 

Eddie's point is correct, you shouldn't be telling other people how to do things if you dont know what you're doing.

 

You're right about the way things are generally done in an RJ, but you seem to have trouble accepting that it's not the same in the A-10.

 

The EGI alignment is for the INS and is independent of the GPS, so your point about older airplanes not using GPS isn't applicable. If you want to expedite the EGI alignment, you should use a BATH or SH alignment under the ALT ALIGN page. An In-Flight alignment is by far the slowest method. Not to mention that it's not really simulated properly in DCS.

The checklist I used came straight from the training mission, whats so difficult to understand about that? Thats the point Ive been trying to make these past few posts...if it doesnt work, then Id like to know the how and why first...preferably the why before the how. First part of troubleshooting is to recognize there is a problem, right?

[Hamblue]

Guess all that matters is the Op got his answer :)

As a bonus he got to know how many seats and winglets are in a Brazilian aircraft as well as a half dozen ways to start the A10.

All's well

[porky_pig]

Guess all that matters is the Op got his answer :)

As a bonus he got to know how many seats and winglets are in a Brazilian aircraft as well as a half dozen ways to start the A10.

All's well

No, I came in here with an answer, and it turned out to be the incorrect answer. I got 1 person offering somewhat decent advice, and 10 other people chiming in with an attitude like they fly the real damn thing on a daily basis. FML. Its a wonder why Ive avoided this place for the last 9 years.

[IdleBoards]

If you download the checklist that Eddie posted, then you will be doing it the right way. It doesn't really matter what the ED supplied training mission says or does. Thats the takeaway here.

 

Nobody is trying to piss you off.

[Eddie]

Perhaps if you improved your own attitude a bit, you'd find people behaving less abrasively toward you. People are not often inclined to continue to be helpful when someone refuses to listen and take onboard the answered they are given in response to their question.

 

You have been given quite a few answers as to why the A-10 is not the same as a civillian aircraft. But in every post since you continue to talk about a "gyro" and/or the attitude indicator, for reasons that are still rather unclear as you never did clarify what you're trying to say as I asked previously. I can only assume that either English is not your first language, or you really don't understand the systems in question, and how they integrate and operate. Because it really is hard to work out what you're getting at.

 

In short, as others have suggested, go back to the manual(s) and try and understand the systems of the A-10C in more detail. You'll soon find the answers to your questions.

 

And no, the in game training missios are not an authority on operating procedures. They do contain many procedural errors. Like so many things in the sim world, there are many ways you can do things, but only one way is correct and follows real world TTPs.

[NhiTrac]

Porky, the main point in which I want to clarify is that you stated your method of start up gets you taxing in less than five mins, then you do the full alignment in the air or while you're taxing (correct me if I've read it wrong)...

 

What we're saying is, the full start up including FULL ALIGNMENT also takes five minutes. As such, your method is in fact longer as you're still completing the alignment process.

[shagrat]

No, I came in here with an answer, and it turned out to be the incorrect answer. I got 1 person offering somewhat decent advice, and 10 other people chiming in with an attitude like they fly the real damn thing on a daily basis. FML. Its a wonder why Ive avoided this place for the last 9 years.

Sorry, if my comments where too sarcastic. I had no intention to hurt you.

It was the way you showed your personal procedures, as a better way of doing things in a noob thread... keep in mind, people are asking to learn how things should be done.

When you posted - let me use your words - bullshit about JTRS, SAS and EAC, it felt like you never thoroughly read the manual and lack the understanding of the systems dependencies. It is possible to do lots of things differently, or quicker, but you need to know what is affected.

My comment about the blue-on-blue was reference to the reason behind procedures. You do it correct all times, training or flight school, so pilots don't learn bad habits which later could be dangerous. Of course you can just fire up the APU, start the engines, roll to the runway and fly visual only, like in WW I. IRL you won't ever do this without getting grounded, because it endangered a multi million dollar airplane and your education and training as a fighter pilot wasn't cheap either.

So sorry, for the harsh comment, but we may agree that procedures for Cessna and a fighter plane are different, and they are different for a reason. :thumbup:

[shagrat]

... I am merely pointing out the fact that there are a lot of civilian aircraft that share the same instruments, and if you cant take that for what it is -A REFERENCE ONLY- then you should get your head examined. They perform the exact same functions with blatantly obvious exceptions. I understand that, and what I dont understand is what I am asking here right now. But thanks for the smartass comment.

Well, if I tell you that a Leopard Battletank and a car share the same instruments like steering wheel, clutch, gas pedal and brake, and parking brake, would you believe me you can drive it the same way, with the same procedures as your car? Just looking over your shoulder would be an interesting adventure. That is why a Tank requires a different drivers license. No arrogance or bullshit, matter of fact! ;)

[porky_pig]

Well, if I tell you that a Leopard Battletank and a car share the same instruments like steering wheel, clutch, gas pedal and brake, and parking brake, would you believe me you can drive it the same way, with the same procedures as your car? Just looking over your shoulder would be an interesting adventure. That is why a Tank requires a different drivers license. No arrogance or bullshit, matter of fact! ;)

Goes forward, backward, up hills, down hills, stops, goes...so whats your point? According to your logic, just because it has a gun means its impossible to drive it like a car. Thats arrogant and pure bullshit, matter of fact. And FYI, no they dont have steering wheels. Mostly referencing my M9 ACE days.

 

Edited June 23, 2013 by porky_pig

[IdleBoards]

So do you have any comments that relate to the help you say you're seeking?

 

Eddie offered you a checklist along with a good explanation of why you should use it. I told you about the Best Available True Heading alignment and explained that it takes far less time than an In-Flight alignment. I also mentioned that the idiosyncrasies of the In-Flight alignment are not modeled in DCS. Others have given you additional information.

 

But you haven't acknowledged anything I've said, except to give me the wrong names of some regional jets that you say you're engine run and taxi qualified on. I have no idea what an "EMB-141" is, nor an "EMB-147"; I assume that you mean the ERJ-135/140/145/Legacy family.

 

Its hard to talk about the details of aircraft systems with you when you keep referring to things in incorrect context. Are you a mechanic? You mention GPS in the context of aligning the EGI, but the alignment process deals exlusively with the INS. You mention uncaging the standby attitude indicator in the context of EAC engagement, but these two systems are not even connected.

 

I really, really think its a good idea to forget about commenting on the driving characteristics and controls of Leopard tanks, and focus instead on asking questions and reading the plethora of information offered on these forums. I know for a fact that there are threads that explain - in great depth - the EGI system, HARS, EAC (PAC/LAAP), and just about anything else you can think of. No need to be unsure of things...its all here.

[shagrat]

Goes forward, backward, up hills, down hills, stops, goes...so whats your point? According to your logic, just because it has a gun means its impossible to drive it like a car. Thats arrogant and pure bullshit, matter of fact. And FYI, no they dont have steering wheels. Mostly referencing my M9 ACE days.

If you read my post thoroughly, you would have read "Leopard" battle tank! I know for sure how it looks inside, because I sat in one, so "arrogant and pure bullshit" comes from personal experience here, May I ask how many modern Main BattleTanks you drove in public traffic in your life and qualify your statement?... and about forward, backward, uphill, downhill, stop etc. I recommend to trust more experienced people, that if you drive it like a car, you quickly end up with a track thrown, or otherwise damaged... believe me: even the gun (simply for the length) is something to consider! :megalol:

 

Anyway, that was exactly my point: You look at apples, know how they look inside and taste, and now you consider Oranges have simply a different color, but the inside and taste must be the same as the apple. Please, reconsider to check what Eddie told you, he is one of THE authorities on the forums, and he knows what he is talking about.

 

EDIT: About the Bradley's "powerslide", he was gliding the IFV on its stopped tracks. if he did it with the tracks unlocked, he would have damaged them... in a car during a powerslide you stabilize the drift. Good skills on the drivers side and good knowledge of the mass and speeds of his IFV, but also a difference of 33 tons vs. 68 tons of a M1A2 for example.

The result is: It looks like he is driving it like a car, but the procedures he uses are different... that's why you need to learn them, first.

 

Fotos of the Leopard 2 A5's driver seat:

 

 

Edited June 23, 2013 by shagrat

[porky_pig]

So do you have any comments that relate to the help you say you're seeking?

Yes, actually the post Eddie contributed with his checklist. Could have been studying it had it not been for the rest of the stupid bullshit thrown in by everyone else.

 

But you haven't acknowledged anything I've said, except to give me the wrong names of some regional jets that you say you're engine run and taxi qualified on. I have no idea what an "EMB-141" is, nor an "EMB-147"; I assume that you mean the ERJ-135/140/145/Legacy family.

Embraer? Pretty sure you got the idea what I was talking about. Like Ive stated a few times, Ive been out of that field for years now. Does it really matter anyways?

 

Its hard to talk about the details of aircraft systems with you when you keep referring to things in incorrect context. Are you a mechanic? You mention GPS in the context of aligning the EGI, but the alignment process deals exlusively with the INS. You mention uncaging the standby attitude indicator in the context of EAC engagement, but these two systems are not even connected.

And yet nobody has given me a straight yes or no answer to my questions.

 

I really, really think its a good idea to forget about commenting on the driving characteristics and controls of Leopard tanks,

Great idea. Now if I could only get the other people who act like they are the shit to back off.
Edited June 23, 2013 by porky_pig

[porky_pig]

If you read my post thoroughly, you would have read "Leopard" battle tank! I know for sure how it looks inside, because I sat in one, so "arrogant and pure bullshit" comes from personal experience here, May I ask how many modern Main BattleTanks you drove in public traffic in your life and qualify your statement?... and about forward, backward, uphill, downhill, stop etc. I recommend to trust more experienced people, that if you drive it like a car, you quickly end up with a track thrown, or otherwise damaged... believe me: even the gun (simply for the length) is something to consider! :megalol:

No shit? Really? Im overf*ckingwhelmed. Most track driven vehicles Ive ever used had 2 levers to control the brakes on the tracks. But you knew this. And still I dont care.

 

Anyway, that was exactly my gibberish bullshit from here on out

No, your point is to troll, and Im not exactly sure as to why you have to be a goddamn forum flamer.

 

Here is a few questions Ive asked, which have gone unanswered, especially by you.

 

Does the gyro control the yaw axis autopilot?

Does the attitude indicator control the pitch and yaw autopilot axis?

Does the pitot static system control the barometric altitude/airspeed autopilot?

 

These are simple yes or no questions, and all Ive wanted/needed are a simple yes or no answer. You, in your brilliant mind, decided to go off on your own little tangent (and for some reason or other moved onto tanks). If you have anything to contribute other than your stupid bullshit and attitude, then say it. Otherwise bug out. Thanks.

 

God damn.

[EtherealN]

I want everyone here to calm down.

 

Be constructive, polite and on topic or face my wrath.

[Eddie]

These are simple yes or no questions,

 

No, they are not simple yes or no questions. They are questions that make next to no sense at all. THAT is what everyone here has been telling you, and yet you just keep repeating the same things and going around in circles.

 

In order of your questions, because you still have not responded to those who have asked you clarify.

 

Does the gyro control the yaw axis autopilot?

 

What gyro? There are quite a few of them in the aircraft. And what yaw axis autopilot?

 

Does the attitude indicator control the pitch and yaw autopilot axis?

 

Erm, not even sure how to respond to that one at all. The attitude indicator (I assume you mean the Attitude Direction Indicator) doesn't control anything, it is an instrument.

 

Does the pitot static system control the barometric altitude/airspeed autopilot?

 

Again, the pitot static system doesn't control anything, it provides air data to the CICU.

[porky_pig]

No, they are not simple yes or no questions. They are questions that make next to no sense at all. THAT is what everyone here has been telling you, and yet you just keep repeating the same things and going around in circles.

Ive been trying to tie in my findings, and nobody so far has given me into any insight of what is wrong with my thinking here. So bear with me...

 

 

What gyro? There are quite a few of them in the aircraft. And what yaw axis autopilot?

heading gyro. The one located directly between the knees IIRC. The same one every civil aircraft has. Has an airplane pointing in the direction you are currently headed.

 

Erm, not even sure how to respond to that one at all. The attitude indicator (I assume you mean the Attitude Direction Indicator) doesn't control anything, it is an instrument.

It measures the pitch angle, right?

 

Again, the pitot static system doesn't control anything, it provides air data to the CICU.

So in this case, the CICU controls everything?

 

All of these systems I am talking about are tied in to autopilot functions on simple aircraft. My logic here is that if they are the same instrument, then they perform the exact same function on all other aircraft. I am merely trying to find out the why part of how I am able to take off combat ready (sans gps guided munitions) without a nav ground alignment. I fully understand that mil and civ aircraft are different...but the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited June 23, 2013 by porky_pig

[Eddie]

heading gyro. The one located directly between the knees IIRC. The same one every civil aircraft has. Has an airplane pointing in the direction you are currently headed.

 

That is not a gyro. It is the HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator). It is an instrument, all it does is display navigation data provided by the EGI.

 

It measures the pitch angle, right?

 

No. It displays attitude information, it does not measure anything. The EGI does the measuring.

 

So in this case, the CICU controls everything?

 

No. The CICU is just one avionics subsystem in the aircraft. The IFFCC, EGI, and CICU are all systems that TOGETHER provide navigation and targeting data to the pilot.

 

I think here is the crux of the issue, you simply don't grasp how aircraft avionics work, and most importantly how the various subsystems integrate.

 

The first thing to understand is that everything you see in the cockpit are instruments, they simply display the information gathered by the systems that sit in the aircraft's avionics bay.

[porky_pig]

That is not a gyro. It is the HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator). It is an instrument, all it does is display navigation data provided by the EGI.

The only case Ive ever cracked (unairworthy)

was a heading indicator, in which it was indeed gyroscopic. If the HSI isnt gyroscopic, then I get it now.

 

 

No. It displays attitude information, it does not measure anything. The EGI does the measuring.

 

:thumbup:

No. The CICU is just one avionics subsystem in the aircraft. The IFFCC, EGI, and CICU are all systems that TOGETHER provide navigation and targeting data to the pilot.

So in the end, what exactly controls the autopilot axises on this particular aircraft?

I think here is the crux of the issue, you simply don't grasp how aircraft avionics work, and most importantly how the various subsystems integrate.

 

The first thing to understand is that everything you see in the cockpit are instruments, they simply display the information gathered by the systems that sit in the aircraft's avionics bay.

You are absolutely right, I dont understand. Ive never been a big fan of fancy avionics, and the most advanced thing Ive ever done on an aircraft was an engine hang.

 

If I have come out abrasive or whatever, its because Im unlearning something, and Im getting old. So I just ask to bear with me, and I apologize if thats how I come off.

[Rongor]

This is walking way off topic...

porky_pig, if you are not interested in enjoying this simulation like everybody else around here, by studying hundreds of manual pages and learning procedures and check lists, feel free do your thing!

But please dont confuse newbies nor the majority of helpful members of this forum community with posting some guessing that originates in nothing else than your obvious unwillingness to learn this sim.

Most people here seem to love DCS for the possibility to learn how it is done as real as it is in real world. We are not really searching for alternative procedures to then for fun put everything into question. We like doing it by the book. You dont care for the book, this is ok. But please dont try to advise people who create threads like this because they actually want to learn something...

[Hamblue]

The OP simply wanted to know why he couldn't arm the EAC. It was a procedural issue and was answered. The bickering that followed (which I added to) has made the thread useless to future seekers. :poster_offtopic:The latest round has gotten nasty so I vote to have the thread locked.

[porky_pig]

This is walking way off topic...

porky_pig, if you are not interested in enjoying this simulation like everybody else around here, by studying hundreds of manual pages and learning procedures and check lists, feel free do your thing!

But please dont confuse newbies nor the majority of helpful members of this forum community with posting some guessing that originates in nothing else than your obvious unwillingness to learn this sim.

Most people here seem to love DCS for the possibility to learn how it is done as real as it is in real world. We are not really searching for alternative procedures to then for fun put everything into question. We like doing it by the book. You dont care for the book, this is ok. But please dont try to advise people who create threads like this because they actually want to learn something...

Unwillingness to learn? :huh: I work 60+ hours a week, and I have a grand total of 6 hours in the A-10 since I bought it last year. Im not exactly pressed for time per se, but if Im ever going to learn how to do this, its by following procedures learned in the training videos..not because I dont want to read 600+ pages of manuals, but simply because I dont have that kind of time to do so. If someone can point out my faults albeit in a friendly, courteous manner, then I am definitely all ears. The very last thing I want nor need is someone to "RTFM", because that is unprofessional, dont you think? I could have sworn at one point that this very forum was meant to "help" those who need it. This isnt help, this is a slugfest. Did I mention that I am still learning procedures for the Ka-50? The Huey? How about that Mustang?

Edited June 23, 2013 by porky_pig

[shagrat]

Unwillingness to learn? :huh: I work 60+ hours a week, and I have a grand total of 6 hours in the A-10 since I bought it last year. Im not exactly pressed for time per se, but if Im ever going to learn how to do this, its by following procedures learned in the training videos..not because I dont want to read 600+ pages of manuals, but simply because I dont have that kind of time to do so. If someone can point out my faults albeit in a friendly, courteous manner, then I am definitely all ears. The very last thing I want nor need is someone to "RTFM", because that is unprofessional, dont you think? I could have sworn at one point that this very forum was meant to "help" those who need it. This isnt help, this is a slugfest. Did I mention that I am still learning procedures for the Ka-50? The Huey? How about that Mustang?

ok, that is a total different attitude, than telling everybody how the avionics in the A-10C might work by guessing and adopting knowledge from civil aviation. :thumbup:

RTFM did not refer to the manual, as a whole. I agree the time issue, is not easy to master, but a lot of us have gone through that.

What is helpful to get the dependencies of subsystems and their tasks sorted is to actually read the manual part about the FCS (Flight Control System) - page 48/49

SAS, its capabilities as well as the EAC ("autopilot") and the subsystems providing data for the EAC to control the SAS is described there. For example the EGI and CADC together(!) are required for the EAC. Another system is the radar altimeter. No radar altimeter, no EAC... technically it is not needed for autopilot, but the risk that the plane crashes is to high, so without radar altimeter EAC is deactivated to force the pilot to concentrate on flying. To know what happens, when the plane gets hit and the honking and blaring starts is vital. The CADC error message on the MFCD should immediately ring a bell... Ah, no TVV possible, no autopilot, corrected bomb delivery not possible... can I fulfil the mission, or do I need to abort?

I know the manual is overwhelming, but you need to read a bit here and there to understand the systems. And I'm not trolling here, or trying to anger you. I really think it will help you a lot.

Peace?