what to expect from Su-27 module?

[Teknetinium]

Sorry for this poor translation.

 

 

НАСУ its the automatic guide ground based system. It could take control of the Su-27 flight guiding in automatic mode in a interception course. Also this system can take control of the Su-27 radar in automatic mode. ( the pilot don´t need to control de radar ).

The ИПВ is the right MFD. БП mode is when the own fighter use his sensors taking in count the data transmited by HACY post. ( instead of an automatic guiding by HACY system with his own data from ground stations).

 

 

In this pic we can se the commanders fighter "1" without the big circle in the bottom (only the little "friendly circle IFF) and three wingmen. Also we can see three sections with four fighters each "2-3-4" with a 4 in a circle ( number of fighters per section)

Also the circles at the bottom are friendly ones, the triangles at the bottom are enemies and the V symbol at the bottom are unidentified targets. The - at the bottom ar radar followed targets.

 

This complete MFD tactical information is showed ONLY on the commander´s and sections leaders MFD.

 

 

Similar info than the commander´s MFD but this case on the leader´s section. The only change is the fighters leader numeral of the second section "1" , and the commander´s formation numeral "1"

 

 

Wingman MFD. The wingmen don´t see a global depict of all sections in this pic, only tactical info about they own section wingmen and leader.

 

With more time i can translate the Datalink chapter from the Su-27SK manual. taking in count that is for export Su-27 variant. Russian equipment could be more advance but more or less the functionality is the same, also the tactical representation.

 

 

Interesting, thank you for translation.

[Teknetinium]

"НАСУ its the automatic guide ground based system. It could take control of the Su-27 flight guiding in automatic mode in a interception course. Also this system can take control of the Su-27 radar in automatic mode. ( the pilot don´t need to control de radar )."

 

This is where FC3 Su-27 TWS gets broken, ED tried to model automatic lock in TWS which is made by computer in FC3. While in real life the lock is made by "HACY" where a human make decisions what to lock or not by closely following action of events and being involved in flights communication. Its very important that Su-27 get back opportunity to track targets in TWS without locking them automaticly, if there is automatic lock there must be manual as well. And since we don't have human controlled GCI the lock would be executed by the pilot not ground control. When my home computer making decisions on what to lock puts me in a big disadvantage compared to manual lock in TWS. I just can't understand why logic could not be applied to get around this problem we have now whit Su-27 TWS,

Edited August 12, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

I was going through this post and found out that FC3 flankers don't do cobra's and on the other can't use Smart A/G weapons... I m a bit surprised about this that why didn't ED upgraded them ? at least to some modern variants ?

 

Anyway this is the case I should wait for Eurofighter or some other country jet module, really don't like playing with Western jet thinking they are the best. Big fan of Flanker I wish someone could make one module for a modern flanker.

 

 

Someone mentioned in an older thread that you can enable the cobra through LUA script command. But I am unble to find it now (at work).

 

An Su-27S variant is mainly an air to air plane with a secondary AG role. Su-30XX or SM variants with smart weapon capability isnt simulated, maybe one day.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Pilotasso]

"НАСУ its the automatic guide ground based system. It could take control of the Su-27 flight guiding in automatic mode in a interception course. Also this system can take control of the Su-27 radar in automatic mode. ( the pilot don´t need to control de radar )."

 

This is where FC3 Su-27 TWS gets broken, ED tried to model automatic lock in TWS which is made by computer in FC3. While in real life the lock is made by HACY where a human make decisions what to lock or not by closely following action of events and being involved in flights communication. Its very important that Su-27 get back opportunity to track targets in TWS without locking them automaticly, if there is automatic lock there must be manual as well. And since we don't have human controlled GCI the lock would be executed by the pilot not ground control. When my home computer making decisions on what to lock puts me in a big disadvantage compared to manual lock in TWS. I just can't understand why logic could not be applied to get around this problem we have now whit Su-27 TWS,

 

To be honest, if thats how the system works I'd rather maintain manual mode. I wouldnt want the GCI to steer the antenna to the guy it sees only to take a missile from another guy flying in the hills that they didnt see. Too dangerous. :)

 

The current Flanker radar implementation has worse things than the lack of this type of Datalink. All I need is an improved radar management to fly the flanker again.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Esac_mirmidon]

My english must be worst than i thought. Nobody understands me XDDD.

 

 

I´m not a pilot, i´m not an expert, i´m not nothing but a simulator user. So i can´t speak about nothing except my exgirlfriend ( i have a deep knowledge about her ).

 

I´m not supporting anybody arguments, my intention was ONLY show that Su-27 is capable of doing extreme AoA maneuvers, pulling more degrees than others in certain situations. I´ve never said that this maneuvers are better or worst. I´m only saying that Su-27 can do it.

 

And i´ve said it´s better to have this option than not having it. Because it´s possible in certain combat situations ( very uncommon because modern combat is a matter of speed and energy in close encounters) that extra AoA could help in pointing the nose over the target to lock and fire. Yes it´s possible, using boresight mode, helmet mode ( that need manual lock ), but also and more important, vertical mode + IRST, with auto lock and R-73. The pilot don´t need to push nothing, only point the nose, get the target inside the vertical bars and wait a second or two for the lock and launch.

 

This is so strange? i´m crazy? I need to be a real pilot to say this? It´s all described in the real manual.

 

The Su-27SK manual said specifically that the AoA-G limitator must be ON during flights. It´s a safe measurement because it´s obvius that the limitator helps in flying safer not allowing to pass dangerous handling limits.

 

But it´s possible also to turning off, Su-27 in shows and demonstrations are doing this every Airshow since a lot of years. When the pilot turns off the limitator nothing happens. The Su-27 flies the same and the pilot must know that can pull more and the Su-27 could react without limitations.

 

Obviously this could be dangerous, but pilots knows how to handling in such situations, they are doing this stuff in every air display and show. The ariframe is stronge enough, the engines, specifically in the Su-27 are very very strong, they don´t stop in such maneuvers, almost at 0 speed. There are a lot of videos of low speed, high AoA showing it.

 

And last, it´s so dificult to write in a forum or in a thread with a little kindness? Wy when someone disagree or only write something different or is only giving some info with the best intention always someone take the gun and starts shooting?

 

It´s so difficult to let outside the personal side and get focused in the info?

[Pilotasso]

Mirmidon you will get extreme AOA back soon enough. We will be getting AFM a few months down the line. Then you are free to try them. Cheers.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Really what I expect from Su-27 module addition to the current features that this jet have in FC3 is :

 

1. Cobra move (a must have which is signature to this awesome plane which also have advantage in close dogfight )

2. In-flight Refueling ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

3. Sead strike capability ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

4. Anti-ships strike capability ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

5. Pinpoint Strike capabilities ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

 

The Su-27S don´t have inflight refueling in real life. Not SEAD capabilities or antiship strike with missiles, only unguided rockets and iron bombs. And the pinpoint strike it´s also a no go for Su-27S.

 

The Su-35S has all this stuff.

 

My wish is if ED make a DCS Su-27S module in deep, the AFM would be complete enough to include this AoA handling like in the real fighter. AoA-G limitator on-off, flying with pitch fly be wire control and also without it because a failure. The posibility to modified the proportional flight control of the FBW changing the values in the left console.

 

Also the changing in flight aerodynamics with slats extended automatically.

 

And of course all the weapons and sensors stuff like datalink, real MFD representation, real CPO 15 with all the functions working as the real display, complete HUD representation with all the navigation and interceptoin aid symbols showing in the display, and a solution ( i know it´s dificult ) , for GCI control.

[Teknetinium]

To be honest, if thats how the system works I'd rather maintain manual mode.

 

Me to, Lets hope we get it back soon enough. Wags mentioned that ED are aware of the Su-27 TWS problems.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1826988&postcount=474

Edited August 12, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Esac_mirmidon]

HACY.

 

I want to be simple.

 

It´s an option. Su-27 pilot can choose between several options.

 

1.- Use the guide data from HACY to fly manually the interception course, following the instructions sended and represented in the HUD and in the ADI. But all manually. ( also it´s possible to disconnect the data transfer and follow only radio in voice guide from HACY)

 

2.- Let HACY to fly the Su-27 in automatic mode to the interception point.

 

Reaching the interception point , more options.

 

1.- Let HACY to use remote control using Su-27 onboard sensors to turn on the radar, search for targets, and lock targets, all using data from HACY equipment. The pilot don´t need to do nothing, only press the trigger when LA shows on HUD.

 

Also it´s possible to use other fighter´s info or awacs info to do so.

 

2.- Use the HACY radio transmited info to manage manually the onboard sensors by the pilot finding targets, locking and launching.

 

So they are only options, depending on the situation. And also this options are OLD, from an era where Frontal Aviation, GCI interception and poor radar capabilities were the rule.

 

Now radars and tactics are very different, not so dependent from GCI.

 

And regarding TWS, it´s curious, because the Su-27SK manual talks about it only where is the button option in the sensors manager plate, and in the radar mode section, but no pics at all about HUD display or MFD display are showed on it about TWS (СНП in russian)

Edited August 12, 2013 by Esac_mirmidon

[Teknetinium]

I agree with you pal... I m sorry to say but you really have to make an effort to play with flanker in multiplayer which is a bit frustrating for us Flanker fans.

 

Every ones knows the capabilities of this jet.

 

Really what I expect from Su-27 module addition to the current features that this jet have in FC3 is :

 

1. Cobra move (a must have which is signature to this awesome plane which also have advantage in close dogfight )

2. In-flight Refueling ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

3. Sead strike capability ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

4. Anti-ships strike capability ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

5. Pinpoint Strike capabilities ( like in the old days flanker dos version)

 

If you see and learn from the first version of Flanker till now ED is downgrading the jet in its simulation instead of improving it ?

 

Please ED I hope you understand what the fans want ? the flankers fans I mean. But it seems that ED is more interested making Western fans happy.

 

Su-27SM which stand for Su-27S(modernised) is multirole fighter that came after Su-27S. It would be like a dream to get my hands on that machine which has all capabilities mentioned above. It actually will be easier to model more accurate Su-27SM AFM because it will be possible to compare it to EDs Su-27S AFM. No offence but ED strongest side is in making good fly dynamics which they proved since Su-25.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Teknetinium

[lfc3333]

This thread got hijacked 8 pages ago. Anyone going to input what they expect from the Su-27 module?

[Esac_mirmidon]

My wish is if ED make a DCS Su-27S module in deep, the AFM would be complete enough to include this AoA handling like in the real fighter. AoA-G limitator on-off, flying with pitch fly be wire control and also without it because a failure. The posibility to modified the proportional flight control of the FBW changing the values in the left console.

 

Also the changing in flight aerodynamics with slats extended automatically.

 

And of course all the weapons and sensors stuff like datalink, real MFD representation, real CPO 15 with all the functions working as the real display, complete HUD representation with all the navigation and interceptoin aid symbols showing in the display, and a solution ( i know it´s dificult ) , for GCI control.

 

this is what i expect

[Grim_Smiles]

Su-27SM is the one announced as intending to be developed by ED, and personally I hope to see it over the Su-27S. I like to do SEAD missions but would like to do it in a fighter instead of an attack plane. I think a multi-role Flanker would make for a good opponent for DCS: F-18C.

[GGTharos]

It's going to be a Su-27S for the time being.

[Kuky]

I would be very happy even with Su-27S, with AFM and all current bugs sorted out

[Grim_Smiles]

It's going to be a Su-27S for the time being.

 

Ah, did not know that. Makes sense, would be easier to do a high-fidelity S instead of a high-fidelity SM.

 

 

I would be very happy even with Su-27S, with AFM and all current bugs sorted out

 

Completely agree.

[nap0leonic]

actually they never said anything about high fidelity 27S, instead they simply mentioned 27SM and planned to release Flaming Cliffs 27 + AFM soon. I don't know which 27 Flaming Cliffs' actually is.

[Esac_mirmidon]

It could be very interesting how ED is going to solve the AFM in a non clickable cockpit for now.

 

Taking in count that AoA limiter can be turned on-off changing dramaticaly the Su-27 handling, and also the FBW system having a proportional ratio movement selector, changing how the Su reacts in relation to the stick movement.

 

Maybe new key assignments can activate or deactive this features, or maybe initialy we could not change this, using only by default, the regular FBW ratio and AoA limiter always on, so, no "Cobra " stuff for a while until further development.

[GGTharos]

It has nothing to do with it being easier, and everything to do with there being data for a hi-fi sim. Su-27SM is classified since it is still in service and AFAIK there's not even an export manual available. It could be done as an FC3 level module with AFM, but right now, I really doubt that anyone has the information to make a DCS quality module out of it. I could always be wrong of course.

 

Ah, did not know that. Makes sense, would be easier to do a high-fidelity S instead of a high-fidelity SM.

[Teknetinium]

It has nothing to do with it being easier, and everything to do with there being data for a hi-fi sim. Su-27SM is classified since it is still in service and AFAIK there's not even an export manual available. It could be done as an FC3 level module with AFM, but right now, I really doubt that anyone has the information to make a DCS quality module out of it. I could always be wrong of course.

 

Su-27SM need accurate AFM and how avionics is presented to the pilot. The rest is adjudicated guises where parameters are taken from known facts that can not really be proven, there is almost no info on Aim-120C/R-77 compere to R-27/Aim-7, still they were implemented in DCS to simulate tactics of aircrafts that employ them.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

We don't know how avionics are presented to the pilot in Su-27SM. There are a few images of some of the display modes, but that's it. And that's why it would be an FC3 (or slightly better) representation.

[johnv2pt0]

My english must be worst than i thought. Nobody understands me XDDD.

 

 

I´m not a pilot, i´m not an expert, i´m not nothing but a simulator user. So i can´t speak about nothing except my exgirlfriend ( i have a deep knowledge about her ).

 

I´m not supporting anybody arguments, my intention was ONLY show that Su-27 is capable of doing extreme AoA maneuvers, pulling more degrees than others in certain situations. I´ve never said that this maneuvers are better or worst. I´m only saying that Su-27 can do it.

 

And i´ve said it´s better to have this option than not having it. Because it´s possible in certain combat situations ( very uncommon because modern combat is a matter of speed and energy in close encounters) that extra AoA could help in pointing the nose over the target to lock and fire. Yes it´s possible, using boresight mode, helmet mode ( that need manual lock ), but also and more important, vertical mode + IRST, with auto lock and R-73. The pilot don´t need to push nothing, only point the nose, get the target inside the vertical bars and wait a second or two for the lock and launch.

 

This is so strange? i´m crazy? I need to be a real pilot to say this? It´s all described in the real manual.

 

The Su-27SK manual said specifically that the AoA-G limitator must be ON during flights. It´s a safe measurement because it´s obvius that the limitator helps in flying safer not allowing to pass dangerous handling limits.

 

But it´s possible also to turning off, Su-27 in shows and demonstrations are doing this every Airshow since a lot of years. When the pilot turns off the limitator nothing happens. The Su-27 flies the same and the pilot must know that can pull more and the Su-27 could react without limitations.

 

Obviously this could be dangerous, but pilots knows how to handling in such situations, they are doing this stuff in every air display and show. The ariframe is stronge enough, the engines, specifically in the Su-27 are very very strong, they don´t stop in such maneuvers, almost at 0 speed. There are a lot of videos of low speed, high AoA showing it.

 

And last, it´s so dificult to write in a forum or in a thread with a little kindness? Wy when someone disagree or only write something different or is only giving some info with the best intention always someone take the gun and starts shooting?

 

It´s so difficult to let outside the personal side and get focused in the info?

 

Interesting, so now you're saying that you didn't say what you said because of the language barrier, and that what I wrote in response to you was mean, all the while changing what you're saying (tone and all), while playing the victim.

 

Listen, I'm not going to play this game with you. If you don't understand what I wrote or how it applies, that's fine but it's your problem. If you are hurt by what I wrote, then you have skin that's just about as thick as a grape and would be well served to toughen up. If you can't take the heat then stay out of the kitchen as they say.

 

Back to the OP, I doubt anything substantial will come of the 27 module unfortunately. At least not for a LONG time. The flight models as far as I can tell have never been good for the FC3 aircraft. I guess the 25 is supposed to have a beefed up flight model, but I don't really know what that means and am suspect of how "realistic" it is. I don't think they will even get that close with the other modules...probably just some tweaks. I hope I'm wrong though.

[Teknetinium]

Interesting, so now you're saying that you didn't say what you said because of the language barrier, and that what I wrote in response to you was mean, all the while changing what you're saying (tone and all), while playing the victim.

 

Listen, I'm not going to play this game with you. If you don't understand what I wrote or how it applies, that's fine but it's your problem. If you are hurt by what I wrote, then you have skin that's just about as thick as a grape and would be well served to toughen up. If you can't take the heat then stay out of the kitchen as they say.

 

Back to the OP, I doubt anything substantial will come of the 27 module unfortunately. At least not for a LONG time. The flight models as far as I can tell have never been good for the FC3 aircraft. I guess the 25 is supposed to have a beefed up flight model, but I don't really know what that means and am suspect of how "realistic" it is. I don't think they will even get that close with the other modules...probably just some tweaks. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

I would say mirmidon have thicker skin than you. since he provided references to all his beliefs in a Su-27 thread, where you started to tell people that F-15 have even better features whit no ducumentation behind it, or logic for that matter:) I told you to start F-15 thread where you could discuss F-15C wishes. No need to jump on people because they believe in something you don't. You might get bitten back by the victim:doh:

Edited August 12, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Esac_mirmidon]

Great post, the first time someone call me a grape.

 

If i'm lucky enough in the next posts maybe someone could call me apple or peach.

 

Thanks.

 

I will continue with the Su-27 instead.

[Pilotasso]

Calling you a grape was a sign of affection :D

 

Gotta remind that next time I date. Sweet :lol: