what to expect from Su-27 module?

[johnv2pt0]

Some say, that Cobra can fool the doppler radar...:huh:

When your radial velocity to the enemy radar is zero yeah...but that lasts for all of 1 second. Pretty useless maneuver...speed is life....bleeding off all your airspeed in a dogfight is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Every airframe has it's own speed that is ideal for creating the minimum turn radius...stall speed is never that airspeed.

 

So is thrust vectoring on F-22, only for airshow :)

Wrong sorry...any airframe with thrust vectoring will have an advantage against one that doesn't in a turning fight.

[nap0leonic]

now the thread is about cobra...:megalol:

 

the reason I asked about the ability to execute cobra in su-27 + afm is because I'm curious as to how good will the flight model be... I'm far more interested in su-27 than f-15 because of the supposedly more advanced flight dynamics, I'm eager to try that even just in a 'game' :smartass:

 

and I think cobra can be useful in real life combat, one hypothetical scenario I can think of is using cobra to attack an enemy high above you after you sneaked from lower altitude.

 

any idea when will they sell the su-27 + afm module? I wonder why they are not prioritizing that, su-27 + f-15 + afm is almost a guarantee more sales than a-10a & su-25... although I can see that because of the existing su-25t and a-10c afm already there so it's easier just to tweak and release the inferior planes afm.

Edited August 10, 2013 by nap0leonic

[skarden]

I've never understood the whole "will it do the Cobra" question that constantly pops up on this board, you would think questions about its avionics and the level of realism that it'll have would be much more important.

[gavagai]

I've never understood the whole "will it do the Cobra" question that constantly pops up on this board, you would think questions about its avionics and the level of realism that it'll have would be much more important.

 

Yes, can you please help me with my question above?:thumbup:

[Exorcet]

Its funny how people try to teach russian pilots about cobras unusefulness while never have faced it in a merge, I would assume a R-73 in the face.

Well, I'll say this. I'm willing to learn.

 

In any case, I see the Cobra leading to trouble more often than not outside of 1v1. And I look forward to verifying it from both sides once we have AFM fighters.

[nap0leonic]

I've never understood the whole "will it do the Cobra" question that constantly pops up on this board, you would think questions about its avionics and the level of realism that it'll have would be much more important.

I think it can be quite useful for marketing purpose as it can be used to show how good dcs world really is especially on flight dynamics simulation, that can possibly attract more fsx guys :smilewink: for example in my country there is surprisingly a lot of people who just fly that boring 737 ngx, I say boring because all they do is routine procedural flying, maybe just maybe a dcs world demonstration with a fine jet like su-27 with accurate flight dynamics can seduce such people into dcs :D

[johnv2pt0]

now the thread is about cobra...:megalol:

 

the reason I asked about the ability to execute cobra in su-27 + afm is because I'm curious as to how good will the flight model be... I'm far more interested in su-27 than f-15 because of the supposedly more advanced flight dynamics, I'm eager to try that even just in a 'game' :smartass:

 

and I think cobra can be useful in real life combat, one hypothetical scenario I can think of is using cobra to attack an enemy high above you after you sneaked from lower altitude.

 

any idea when will they sell the su-27 + afm module? I wonder why they are not prioritizing that, su-27 + f-15 + afm is almost a guarantee more sales than a-10a & su-25... although I can see that because of the existing su-25t and a-10c afm already there so it's easier just to tweak and release the inferior planes afm.

 

No offense meant, but your example is ridiculous. If you snuck up on an airplane from below, simply pull back on the stick, point and fire. There is no reason to waste all your energy in a maneuver like that.

 

Apologies for going off topic here, but I see comments like these about tactics and such all the time and this was just the one that broke the camel's back. Most of the time the comments are from people who are:

 

Not fighter pilots.

Nore are they military pilots.

And usually not even pilots at all.

 

I would love a study sim level of the Su-27 myself...it's a great airplane. Clear skies...rant over.

[leafer]

I've never understood the whole "will it do the Cobra" question that constantly pops up on this board, you would think questions about its avionics and the level of realism that it'll have would be much more important.

 

Being able to do the cobra manually is a level of realism. The avionics will come at a later stage.

[Pyroflash]

Cobra, useful for pointing your nose across the turn circle for a fox 2 if you HAVE A REALLY GOOD REASON. I say really good reason because you will have lost all of your energy, leaving you the equivalent of a peeled grape in BFM.

 

Trust me, I am basically the master of peeled grapes. I am the WHITE WINE of air combat. I know what not to do.

 

That being said, there are situations that require solutions, and sometimes the cobra can be a useful solution. It's all a game of analyzing, cross checking, and re-analyzing. Just keep in mind that the Su-27 can't accelerate like the Eagle. If you lose that much energy, you better have some room to get it back in case whatever you were trying to do didn't work.

[lunaticfringe]

Its funny how people try to teach russian pilots about cobras unusefulness while never have faced it in a merge, I would assume a R-73 in the face.

 

I don't seem to recall being a Russian pilot as part of your CV, hence your guesses are as good as anyone else's.

 

Now, contrasting your *opinion* against conversations with people who have intimate knowledge of the R-73 and the AIM-9X (a weapon with a tighter turn radius from its directed thrust, an earlier full-maneuvering surface authority, a shorter Rmin, and a higher off-boresight acquisition and launch capability), the consensus amongst those who must face the Archer, or lob a Sidewinder back at the shooter, is that the resulting degradation in available performance brought on by the Cobra renders it functionally useless. And the rapid line of sight change to maintain acquisition demanded upon the weapon is easily compounded by nothing more than continuing a simple turn in to the shooter, such is the case in a head-on merge.

 

Ergo, you're taking a bad shot that is easy for your opponent to defeat, and cashing in your energy state to do it. Not mediocre. Not even poor- a bad shot. The guy isn't even put on the defensive for the cost of the round.

 

Sounds positively brilliant- sign me up. /sarc

 

And if you're coming in undetected and can't control your closure and aspect to a point where you can't get yourself a shot without a desperation move, you are 100% in the wrong business.

 

All that said, I *invite* the ability of the Su-27 to perform the Cobra, just as I invite the simulated F-15C to lose the AoA limiter that it has never had, so the abject futility of the Cobra can be illustrated. You go right on ahead and cash in your chips and throw your Archers out like impotent streamers- Eagles *love* it when people get greedy on the G-pole.

Edited August 10, 2013 by lunaticfringe

[hollywoodvillain]

Wrong sorry...any airframe with thrust vectoring will have an advantage against one that doesn't in a turning fight.

oh really? Tell that to the eurofighter pilots

[Frostie]

The Cobra with flares is standard Soviet doctrine during a low level flyby after a successful sortie, well it was in FC2. :)

[Pyroflash]

oh really? Tell that to the eurofighter pilots

 

Err.. Yes, but let's not start THAT argument up again. There is a time and place for thrust vectoring in BFM, and it DOES help in those circumstances. It does, however, result in a similar situation to pulling a cobra. Low speed regimes where it would pull an edge generally mean that, unless the other guy is in the same boat, you are not going to survive long. On the other hand, thrust vectoring doesn't make you any less maneuverable. You just have to know when, and how to use it to your advantage like any other tool.

[zaelu]

Why people insist on that "OMG it bleeds speed... oh lalalalala"?

 

Well... first of all... so what? If the other plane is in the merge with the Su27 then it has to turn as fast as he can towards it... the faster he goes the slower it will turn... or further. That means either the enemy will have to do a turn that will bleed also his energy or will have to do a wider turn to maintain speed and this gives opportunity for Su27 to re-accelerate to decent merge speeds.

 

Then is the reality of this bleeding... yeah it brakes but the maneuver gimmick is pointing the nose, sensors and weapons to a direction different than the one the plane is actually traveling. So the problem for the enemy is not how slow the Su27 got but how could he do the same thing and did the Su27 got him in sights for a missile shot? And then in all movies I didn't see the Su27 really having trouble re accelerating.

 

Now I don't think is a piece of cake to do that maneuver but I do think what it was in Lomac was far from optimal as although simpler to execute was too scripted to be useful. We should wait for the DCS Su27 FC module to be released and if it will allow for Cobra without scripts we will have a chance to see if it is useless or not.

 

Also about the... "yeah fools radar but just fo a second..." well how is it to lose radar contact just for a second when almost merged or in the merge? You lose Lock you need to get it back and not always is simple task... at least not for me :) .

 

My opinion on cobra is that it allows at least for a last byte in a dire situation. ..at least.

[nap0leonic]

No offense meant, but your example is ridiculous. If you snuck up on an airplane from below, simply pull back on the stick, point and fire. There is no reason to waste all your energy in a maneuver like that.

 

Apologies for going off topic here, but I see comments like these about tactics and such all the time and this was just the one that broke the camel's back. Most of the time the comments are from people who are:

 

Not fighter pilots.

Nore are they military pilots.

And usually not even pilots at all.

 

I would love a study sim level of the Su-27 myself...it's a great airplane. Clear skies...rant over.

maybe the flanker pilot don't want to or cannot risk gaining altitude, maybe the flanker pilot want to engage other target immediately after pointing his nose on his above enemy and launched a missile; who knows... but in such situations, as crazy as it sounds, the cobra manouver can be useful :D

 

nevertheless I can't wait for the Su-27 with AFM module

[Teknetinium]

I don't seem to recall being a Russian pilot as part of your CV, hence your guesses are as good as anyone else's.

 

Now, contrasting your *opinion* against conversations with people who have intimate knowledge of the R-73 and the AIM-9X (a weapon with a tighter turn radius from its directed thrust, an earlier full-maneuvering surface authority, a shorter Rmin, and a higher off-boresight acquisition and launch capability), the consensus amongst those who must face the Archer, or lob a Sidewinder back at the shooter, is that the resulting degradation in available performance brought on by the Cobra renders it functionally useless. And the rapid line of sight change to maintain acquisition demanded upon the weapon is easily compounded by nothing more than continuing a simple turn in to the shooter, such is the case in a head-on merge.

 

Ergo, you're taking a bad shot that is easy for your opponent to defeat, and cashing in your energy state to do it. Not mediocre. Not even poor- a bad shot. The guy isn't even put on the defensive for the cost of the round.

 

Sounds positively brilliant- sign me up. /sarc

 

And if you're coming in undetected and can't control your closure and aspect to a point where you can't get yourself a shot without a desperation move, you are 100% in the wrong business.

 

All that said, I *invite* the ability of the Su-27 to perform the Cobra, just as I invite the simulated F-15C to lose the AoA limiter that it has never had, so the abject futility of the Cobra can be illustrated. You go right on ahead and cash in your chips and throw your Archers out like impotent streamers- Eagles *love* it when people get greedy on the G-pole.

 

 

I have been a big fan of Su-27 for a long time and I'm sure I know more about Su-27 capabilities then you. I don't need to have russian pilot CV, its enought not being arrogant to understand that cobra could be used effectively in many situations. There is always one pilot that get in to desperate situation in a murge, having this maneuver or knowing that you can take the aircraft's to any low speeds is better than not having the option. So plz stop tell me that is not useful because I can clearly see its only F-15 fanboys that say so, because if they tried the engine would stop. I wonder if the bell maneuver is useless as well :)?

Edited August 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[pepin1234]

Well, all what we expect about the Su-27 module should stay in the very important question of a fighter THE MISSILES. If the Su-27 module become a real DCS with full funtional Cockpit will be great, but then we will see how this aircraft is easyly shot down because the R-27ER have not enough range and the chaff is so deadly.

 

So the expectation of how succesful you can be with this machine have a direct relation with the problematic results with the R-27 Missiles.

 

So what I think and I have to say: The Su-27 will be downgraded together with the missiles, then the F-18 and F-15 have all the tickets to success.

[Teknetinium]

Well, all what we expect about the Su-27 module should stay in the very important question of a fighter THE MISSILES. If the Su-27 module become a real DCS with full funtional Cockpit will be great, but then we will see how this aircraft is easyly shot down because the R-27ER have not enough range and the chaff is so deadly.

 

So the expectation of how succesful you can be with this machine have a direct relation with the problematic results with the R-27 Missiles.

 

So what I think and I have to say: The Su-27 will be downgraded together with the missiles, then the F-18 and F-15 have all the tickets to success.

 

I would not agree on that if we had DCS Su-27. Some adjustments are still needed for all missiles with a thought that pilots need to take beam more than 60° to have a chance evading a missile from no escape zone(thats not the case now). EOS and data link is powerful weapon when working as a team since Su-27S radar is still good enough to hold enemies at bay, I'm sure we all agree that Su-27SM/3 would be more equal to F-15C. But I can assure you that Full working DCS Su-27 would be capable to handle F-15s and F-18S at same time. Its more about the training and tactics, 51st is living proof since FC1,2,3 have not lost a single multiplayer fight which all were conducted in Su-27 against many F-15 squads. I'm sure it would be as hard with full DCS model but it would be possible.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Exorcet]

Why people insist on that "OMG it bleeds speed... oh lalalalala"?

 

Well... first of all... so what? If the other plane is in the merge with the Su27 then it has to turn as fast as he can towards it... the faster he goes the slower it will turn... or further. That means either the enemy will have to do a turn that will bleed also his energy or will have to do a wider turn to maintain speed and this gives opportunity for Su27 to re-accelerate to decent merge speeds.

Actually no, peak turn rate is at corner speed, so going faster does not mean a slower turn. You also need to consider what happens after the turn, which is where the Cobra really leaves you in a bad situation.

 

Now in a 1v1 with good missiles, this might not be so bad. If it's not a 1v1, you can Cobra and basically come to a stop and then be completely vulnerable to any missile launched on you for a good while.

 

There are times when it's going to be worth it to bleed speed to take the shot, and for that I'd use my instantaneous turning capability and try to retain some energy to defend myself afterward.

 

Then is the reality of this bleeding... yeah it brakes but the maneuver gimmick is pointing the nose, sensors and weapons to a direction different than the one the plane is actually traveling. So the problem for the enemy is not how slow the Su27 got but how could he do the same thing and did the Su27 got him in sights for a missile shot? And then in all movies I didn't see the Su27 really having trouble re accelerating.

Yes it is about firing in a direction where the nose isn't pointing. But HMS does that better.

 

As for accelerating afterward, you're seeing the plane at near sea level at airshows most likely. Doesn't mean it will work higher up, or with a large fuel load, or loaded with weapons.

 

It makes you vulnerable for a time, and there's really no reason to inflict this on yourself when you have better options. There will probably always be some situations where the Cobra would be beneficial, but I don't think it should ever be your first choice.

 

Now I don't think is a piece of cake to do that maneuver but I do think what it was in Lomac was far from optimal as although simpler to execute was too scripted to be useful. We should wait for the DCS Su27 FC module to be released and if it will allow for Cobra without scripts we will have a chance to see if it is useless or not.

I don't remember now if the old scripted Cobra obeyed speed limitations or not. When doing the actual Cobra, you need prep time, because pulling the stick back at speed is just going to make you pitch up. You need to slow down to do it, and then it's going to slow you down even more. This makes it even harder to use.

 

Also about the... "yeah fools radar but just fo a second..." well how is it to lose radar contact just for a second when almost merged or in the merge? You lose Lock you need to get it back and not always is simple task... at least not for me :) .

If it's only for a second, then all that will happen is the radar going into mem mode. It won't fool IR missiles though. Or the pilot's eyes (well maybe).

 

My opinion on cobra is that it allows at least for a last byte in a dire situation. ..at least.

Well yeah, but this can be said about pretty much anything. Basically you can find a situation where it works, but will you ever make use of it in practice?

[Teknetinium]

Basically you can find a situation where it works, but will you ever make use of it in practice?

 

Cobra as bell maneuver is very useful in practice, especially if you have R-73. It means that no matter what you do su-27 will have its nose pointed at you with a chance to launch a R-73. Bleeding speed for a shot to kill is worth it.

[Exorcet]

Bleeding speed for a shot to kill is worth it.

Even it means you're giving yourself up to be killed?

[Teknetinium]

Even it means you're giving yourself up to be killed?

 

By your buddy that will be killed by my.

Su-27/Mig-29 have a better turn rate then F-15 and F-16 and on top of that it can do cobra and bell maneuver together whit helmet mounted sight and R-73s you just don't want to get in a merge because the odds are not on your side when that happens, so simple is that.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Exorcet]

By you budy that will be killed by my.

 

Or the HOBS missile you'll have no energy to avoid.

 

Su-27/Mig-29 have a better turn rate then F-15 and F-16 and on top of that it can do cobra and bell maneuver together whit helmet mounted sight and R-73s you just don't want to get in a merge because the odds are not on your side when that happens so simple is that.

 

That's another thing I suppose, avoiding the merge completely. Even if the merge does happen, there is no guarantee that it will be a pair of fighters jousting straight at each other and waiting until they pass to shoot. My experience in FC says otherwise, it's usually a lot more messy. Someone's bound to go down before you even need to point your nose at extreme angles, and when you do get to that point, you need to consider not only your target, but his friends, your friends, and possibly the terrain.

 

Su's and MiG's already have an advantage WVR, but it doesn't stop F-15's from winning some fights. If F-15 goes DCS, maybe it will get HMS as well, and that could seriously alter the balance of WVR.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Exorcet

[Teknetinium]

Or the HOBS missile you'll have no energy to avoid.

 

You have to understand that Su-27 pilots in a merge have same choice as any other pilots, its other way around, none have the choice Su-27 pilots have. Su-27 and F-18 can as well do sustained turns but they have the option to bleed speed with help of high AOA faster than others if needed. In a merge that is important.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

The cobra was present since Lockon 1.0, up to FC2. In all those years people preferred to go low and fast (and that hasn't changed even though the SIM sure did), I have rarely seen anyone do a cobra, and I have never seen it behind a successful kill.

 

That pretty much sums it up for me regarding the cobra with AFM.