what to expect from Su-27 module?

[GGTharos]

I recall seeing two Su-27 training videos from Lipetsk. No one ever used the cobra, ever - not in the 1v1 and not in the 4v4.

[Teknetinium]

The cobra was present since Lockon 1.0, up to FC2. In all those years people preferred to go low and fast (and that hasn't changed even though the SIM sure did), I have rarely seen anyone do a cobra, and I have never seen it behind a successful kill.

 

That pretty much sums it up for me regarding the cobra with AFM.

 

 

Would be a shame if it was not modeled in AFM. Im sure there is much more there to explore then scripted cobra in FC1/2.

Its not only about the usefulness in combat its about accurate model of AFM. Not everyone enjoy spamming ERs/aim-120, many are here because of the advanced flight model. I don't understand why anyone would have different opinion. Those who are talking about if it usefull or not are not even enjoy to fly Su-27, why would you want lobby against something that is signum of Su-27.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

Im sure it will just as before, people still like to do aerobatics. Its such an iconic manuever It would be a crime to leave it out. having said this, doesn't change what I said earlier. people wont do it to exchange missiles or dodge them.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Exorcet]

You have to understand that Su-27 pilots in a merge have same choice as any other pilots, its other way around, none have the choice Su-27 pilots have. Su-27 and F-18 can as well do sustained turns but they have the option to bleed speed with help of high AOA faster than others if needed. In a merge that is important.

 

Yes, they do have more choices, but does that give them a significant advantage? A jet with two engines can turn off one engine in the merge and keep flying. A jet with one engine can't. But doing this is plainly idiotic.

 

Being able to bleed speed is certainly important. But you don't need the Cobra to do this, and the Cobra might not even be the best way to do this, since you need to prepare for it. You can always burn off speed with fully aft stick and airbrake and do this whenever you want. The Cobra does have the advantage of keeping you in the same spot you started in, relatively, but at the cost of nearly all of your energy. That doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

 

Would be a shame if it was not modeled in AFM. Im sure there is much more there to explore then scripted cobra in FC1/2.

Its not only about the usefulness in combat its about accurate model of AFM. Not everyone enjoy spamming ERs/aim-120, many are here because of the advanced flight model. I don't understand why anyone would have different opinion. Those who are talking about if it usefull or not are not even enjoy to fly Su-27, why would you want lobby against something that is signum of Su-27.

What does usefulness have to do with enjoyment? Cobra has to be in Su-27 AFM because the Su-27 does Cobras. The same would go for a F-22 AFM or F-18 HAVR AFM even if no one would ever use them in combat, or even never use them at all. They exist, and DCS is a sim.

[zaelu]

Yes it is about firing in a direction where the nose isn't pointing. But HMS does that better.

 

HMS is good but does not work where you can go with that maneuver (towards back that is :) )

 

As for accelerating afterward, you're seeing the plane at near sea level at airshows most likely. Doesn't mean it will work higher up, or with a large fuel load, or loaded with weapons.

 

you mean like this?:

 

UsyMUAfh6fg

 

When doing the actual Cobra, you need prep time, because pulling the stick back at speed is just going to make you pitch up. You need to slow down to do it, and then it's going to slow you down even more. This makes it even harder to use.

 

You don't need to slow down... If and only if the fight drags the speeds to slow levels... you have it just as an option when the speed is in range and situation could be advantageous if you do it and you might be dead if you don't.

 

 

Now Cobra is a simple maneuver and is way weaker than the maneuvers that SU35s with thrust vectoring can do... those guys are like flying Tunguskas and I don't think any F15 pilot looking at it turning after him in mid air will joke and say: "heh... noob, he slowed down". I think he rather thinks that if he survives he will report a new type of Short range SAM :D . Now Cobra is weaker but like the old argument... What is better? No eye or half an eye?

[PFunk1606688187]

I don't understand why you would ever use a maneuver that would bleed insane amounts of energy if the battle so far lead to you being that slow in the first place. Seems like its a "this works or I'm dead" kind of gambit.

 

I also wonder how you could end up in a slow turning fight, that slow, and have a head on pass where the opponent will overfly you but not himself fire a weapon at you?

 

Surely if he's high and coming in head on at low speed you're already firing missiles before he flies overhead right?

 

It just seems like people are defending a strategy that'll involve a 1 in a billion chance in combat where breaking the rules actually saves your life. I've heard about WW2 pilots using snap rolls to escape certain death, and I've seen an IL-2 replay of a P-47 in a stall fight do a snap roll to go from being in the kill box to trailing and pull off a kill. Still, thats a guns scenario. Missiles aren't anything like that.

 

Granted I'm not an expert on A2A combat, but this doesn't track as a logical strategy.

[Frostie]

I don't understand why you would ever use a maneuver that would bleed insane amounts of energy if the battle so far lead to you being that slow in the first place. Seems like its a "this works or I'm dead" kind of gambit.

 

I also wonder how you could end up in a slow turning fight, that slow, and have a head on pass where the opponent will overfly you but not himself fire a weapon at you?

A lot of Soviet tactics revolved around notch to WVR.

Notching is one way to draw a fight in close, firstly the radar(pilot) has trouble finding you and secondly if the radar does find you the missiles and radar have a hard time tracking you. This can result in a merge in which any aircraft that decides to pull out of or go for energy will end up with an IR missile up the tail pipe.

[Davis0079]

I think everyone has lost sight here....its not about whether the cobra is useful in combat....its not about thrust vectoring...missiles...or how many hypothetical situations we can think of...

 

.....the OP is asking (or at least one of his questions), since the real plane can do it.....is it going to be modeled.....what do you think...yes or no....not whether its useful enough to get modeled...not is it worth the time....not if its a bad tactic....not if it will get him killed....not if he should buy a gtx770 or a 780....not if its raining today in San Diego......

 

.....is the AFM Su-27 going to be able to do a cobra????.........i think its a fair question....and I can't wait to here your answer....

[Frostie]

.....is the AFM Su-27 going to be able to do a cobra????.........i think its a fair question....and I can't wait to here your answer....

 

Why don't you tell us? :D It'll be as good a guess as anyone else's :D

 

Now lets continue.

[Exorcet]

HMS is good but does not work where you can go with that maneuver (towards back that is )

But then you need only turn the nose a few degrees and you can see behind you, rather than slowing to a crawl and having to throw the nose all the way back.

 

 

 

you mean like this?:

 

 

That's still sea level, fuel level unknown, and no speed shown.

 

You don't need to slow down... If and only if the fight drags the speeds to slow levels... you have it just as an option when the speed is in range and situation could be advantageous if you do it and you might be dead if you don't.

At this point, how often would you even get to use the Cobra? In my opinion, super high OBS shots would be most useful right after something like a classic joust merge (which may not even be common). In that case, you are either flying slow into the merge (ie dead) or you slow down way below combat speed after your adversary passes, by which point, he's turning on you unless he wasn't to do a Cobra too.

 

Now after the initial merge, if speed starts going away from both planes, then yes, you'll be able to instantly Cobra, but you obviously don't need it if he's in front of you. Doing it when he's behind you means you're dead (but I guess a mutual kill is a better outcome for you), and since most of the reason to go to such low speeds is to try and turn inside the other guy, you need to start worrying about Rmin.

 

 

Now Cobra is a simple maneuver and is way weaker than the maneuvers that SU35s with thrust vectoring can do... those guys are like flying Tunguskas and I don't think any F15 pilot looking at it turning after him in mid air will joke and say: "heh... noob, he slowed down". I think he rather thinks that if he survives he will report a new type of Short range SAM . Now Cobra is weaker but like the old argument... What is better? No eye or half an eye?

 

If he does survive, he'd probably also highly recommend AIM-9's against this new SAM lol.

 

A lot of Soviet tactics revolved around notch to WVR.

Notching is one way to draw a fight in close, firstly the radar(pilot) has trouble finding you and secondly if the radar does find you the missiles and radar have a hard time tracking you. This can result in a merge in which any aircraft that decides to pull out of or go for energy will end up with an IR missile up the tail pipe.

But actually notching would be a lot more effective than slowing down for a few seconds only to come out of notch in the exact place that the radar is looking waiting for a new lock.

 

You certainly can't Cobra your way into WVR from BVR.

[Frostie]

 

But actually notching would be a lot more effective than slowing down for a few seconds only to come out of notch in the exact place that the radar is looking waiting for a new lock.

 

You certainly can't Cobra your way into WVR from BVR.

I wasn't actually implying a Cobra, just how fights can end up low and slow.

[Rotorhead]

Wow, what a nice and passionate discussion have we here! I will better not get involved, I'll rather leave it on local aerodynamic experts... :smartass:

 

But one thing I want to say, I really hope that Cobra will be possible with the new AFM. I don't really care how much useless is it, or how rarely people use it. The real Flanker can do it and I would love to see my simulated Flanker to do it too - especially because most of my DCS flying consist of leisure flights, aerobatics, or just fooling around.

 

In fact, I bought FC3 only to enjoy the AFMs (especially the Flanker's) and I hope they will be as real as possible.

[Irregular programming]

I like the kulbit better anyway.

[johnv2pt0]

Anyone seen gun camera footage of the cobra being used to success in combat? Surely it's out there if it's as useful as some claim it is. It would be great propaganda for the country of origin right?

 

Anyone seen video of people training on how to fight against the cobra maneuver? Surely you would need to do so against such a potent threat...

 

...the cobra is a talking point, not a training point. Anything that's a last ditch effort is by definition not what you want to plan on using. You might as well pop the canopy and throw your piddle pack at your attacker.

[Witchking]

The fact that landings can finally be more realistic than the plane just stuttering and sticking to the ground is more than exciting enough. But seriously, based on current AFM models, I don't know how much ED models the aero of the fuselage. I can assume thrust, systems, lift, drag etc being modelled...but I guess I am most looking forward to seeing how they can model the "new generation" aircraft accurately...considering that their fuselage is a large aero surface on its own. It is this large surface area that allows the plane itself to act as a huge air brake. Not to mention the definition of the center of gravity and the thrust to weight ratio etc etc. Either way...this is the most excited module I am looking forward to...even more than the DCS FA-18. Sorry hornet fans. :p

[nap0leonic]

I'm not an expert here, but I guess the current coding is still far limited to predefined physics law within the game engine rather than something entirely dynamic like fluid physics real time demo we have seen demonstrated by GPU makers / physics engine makers.

 

I guess it's still a looong way to have a real time physics engine in flight sim? maybe next decade? I would love to be proven wrong though :D

[GGTharos]

Which is why it's best not to say things. ;)

 

 

 

I'm not an expert here,

[SkateZilla]

Every video I've seen of the Cobra and other High AoA Loops/Rolls/Stalls...

They are all Well below Ideal Combat Speed. Not to mention they are borderline stalls, being controlled by computer inputs on the control surfaces and engines.

 

having a plane in a High AoA on the edge of stalling in any close in engagement isnt gonna end well.

 

Try to bust a cobra at 400knots, and watch what happens..

Edited August 11, 2013 by SkateZilla

[nap0leonic]

Which is why it's best not to say things. ;)

 

are you implying that my guess is entirely wrong? :huh: is real time aerodynamics physics already achieved in consumer flight simulators? where? :huh: I'd love to see it.

[GGTharos]

I'm implying the AFM can do better than certain very expensive simulators. No, you're not going to get a real-time CFD, and it's actually not needed in the least.

[lunaticfringe]

I have been a big fan of Su-27 for a long time and I'm sure I know more about Su-27 capabilities then you.

 

Come on, pump it up... :weight_lift_2:

 

I don't need to have russian pilot CV, its enought not being arrogant to understand that cobra could be used effectively in many situations.

 

You calling anybody arrogant after that lede is comedy gold. :megalol:

 

There is always one pilot that get in to desperate situation in a murge, having this maneuver or knowing that you can take the aircraft's to any low speeds is better than not having the option.

 

Nobody but the guy planning to blow his entire wad for a fleeting glimpse at a poor shot knows how, or is willing to take his aircraft to low speed. Nor does anyone know the best performance capability for their aircraft in comparison to a dedicated low-speed fighter.

 

Nope- it's like the Spanish Inquisition. AND NOBODY EXPECTS TEH SPANISH INQUISITION!!!1!

 

So plz stop tell me that is not useful because I can clearly see its only F-15 fanboys that say so, because if they tried the engine would stop. I wonder if the bell maneuver is useless as well :)?

 

Like I said- you're more than welcome to *try*. I already invited you to.

 

Just don't come back here complaining when you get burned like you do with missiles.

[nap0leonic]

I'm implying the AFM can do better than certain very expensive simulators. No, you're not going to get a real-time CFD, and it's actually not needed in the least.

 

and that is where you are wrong... if real time aerodynamics achieved then we can simply build realistic 3d model and we can expect the model to fly realistically without the need to create several separate codes for each flight characteristics.

 

that is what they have been trying to do in real time graphics hardware and software world with things like physx; it's comparable to having motion captured 3d CG animation vs manually created 3d CG animations.

[GGTharos]

I guess if you didn't want to do anything else with those CPU cycles ...

 

and that is where you are wrong... if real time aerodynamics achieved then we can simply build realistic 3d model and we can expect the model to fly realistically without the need to create several separate codes for each flight characteristics.

 

that is what they have been trying to do in real time graphics hardware and software world with things like physx; it's comparable to having motion captured 3d CG animation vs manually created 3d CG animations.

[Teknetinium]

Come on, pump it up... :weight_lift_2:

 

Like I said- you're more than welcome to *try*. I already invited you to.

 

Just don't come back here complaining when you get burned like you do with missiles.

 

We are complaining about basic features and systems that Su-27 don't have in FC3. I don't understand why you as F-15 fanboy have anything to say in here. Specialy if people ask for cobra,EOS,TWS, not downgrading your aim-120, no one asked your opinion of it usefulness or about you uber skill showing how to counter it.

 

Invite me for what, must missed it? Cobra is not working in FC3, otherwise I would do it on you on daily bases. If you want to take out your frustration I can't give you a Go. Bring your buddies and i'll make a server to show you where you stand. You can bring Aim-120 with you as well, Im sure will will need them.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Teknetinium

[159th_Falcon]

We are complaining about basic features and systems that Su-27 don't have in FC3. I don't understand why you as F-15 fanboy have anything to say in here. Special if people ask for cobra,EOS,TWS, not downgrading your aim-120, no one asked your opinion of it usefulness or about you uber skill showing how to counter it.

 

Invite me for what, must missed it? Cobra is not working in FC3, otherwise I would do it on you on daily bases. If you want to take out your frustration I can't give you a Go. Bring your buddies and i'll make a server and I'll show you where you stand. You can bring Aim-120 with you as well :)

 

Can i come enjoy the fireworks Tek? Those R27's always make such nice fireballs in the sky.