What to learn after start up?

[PFunk1606688187]

I guess some people miss the challenge and adrenalin of a CCIP run, so the "lamer" comment is meant like "I got huuuge balls!" :D

No mainly its because some people are utterly incapable of using CCIP and never learn to manage their kite correctly because the CCRP system is immensely forgiving. If anything using CCRP plus Mavericks exclusively guarantees somebody considers the state of their aircraft far less than somebody who tries to problem solve with more dynamic tools like CCIP.

 

People who are overly reliant on CCRP are also huge TGP whores. They stare through this narrow soda straw the whole time, obsessed with mark points and using B/W HOT to find stuff and end up with shit SA as a result. Its one thing if the JTAC is a computer and gives you perfect grids, but finding stuff when a human is describing it and doesn't know to read out LatLong correctly so you end up having to go by cockpit visuals is another altogether.

 

Since it's a SIM I agree that good practice with CCIP is much more fun and challenging, but IRL you would do what's best to accomplish the mission, save your ass, and get home the quite expensive plane.:music_whistling:

While I have no clue what current doctrine is, I would imagine CCIP and CCRP have equal value depending on the situation. Using CCRP when doing a pop up attack from 300 feet above the ground would certainly be interesting.

 

Obviously we're here just to have fun, but even in real life a prolonged hot war could deplete the stocks of PGMs, or a conflict with softer "collateral" factors could lead to less worry about using unguided ordnance when its less essential. Ultimately the art of delivery is always practiced in its BALLSIEST manner so that they know what they're doing. I can only hope that the F-35 won't make dive bombing obsolete entirely. :P

Edited September 2, 2013 by P*Funk

[Hamblue]

Part of the reliance on CCRP (In multiplayer at least) is the layout of many of the missions. Seems like anytime you dive low a manpad or other is hidden and waiting your arrival. There are exceptions of course and those usually require NOE flying and have long range sams to take you out if flying high.

[dburne]

I am currently in a bit of a break ( summer months real busy for me ), what I have been doing is:

Tutorial - started with the ramp start, did it over, and over , and over. Printed out a checklist I got somewhere here on the forum, did the training few more times, and got to where I have no trouble ramp starting the A-10C.

 

Once it was fired up and running, I thought shame to just shut it down now - so off I went - taxi to the runway, then I took off. I had already read about the NWS and when to disengage it - swerved a little but took off cleanly. Once in the air I thought, shame to just end it here - so I lined up and attempted to land. Dang if I didn't land ok, don't even think I damage anything.

 

So I did that sequence of events, over and over - and will be doing again here soon. I also started going through the navigation tutorial now, will be repeating it a few more times so I can get a better feel for it.

 

I am a far cry from being able to engage in combat - if I had more time I probably already would be there, once the fall/winter months get here I will have much more time and get back to it. It has been work going through the learning curve for just what I have done so far, but man is it rewarding!

[ENO]

For any noob I agree that with exposure you begin to adjust to automatically looking at gauges you previously didn't even know existed and gain the ability to stop "thinking" about having to look at them. More importantly, you learn which gauges you DON'T need to look at and the functions in the cockpit you can generally ignore after startup. As your confidence builds and you gain experience, you start to feel more comfortable with aspects of the cockpit. If you get hit and need to start working through a checklist (there's a great A-10 Checklist ap for example) you know where everything is... but you also know during your every day flight once you've set it during your startup you never have to think about it again and can concentrate on looking at the important stuff.

 

You reach for switches or mindlessly flick switches on your controls without having to look for them. You start to recognize areas on the map outside of the canopy instead of in F10 and automatically gain some situational awareness as a result. You are able to focus a bit more on putting the polish on the cannonball.

 

Once you feel this button pop suddenly you notice that you can start paying a little more attention to the finer details of the cockpit and the various systems at your disposal. This will happen gradually as you spend more time in the cockpit.

 

Problem is if you don't shake yourself out first and just get comfortable with the basic flight systems, you will not only be overwhelmed by those systems (2/3rds of the cockpit if you don't know what anything is) but then you're going to want to start dropping groceries on the doorstep and that simple task can expand your workload exponentially (if you don't already know your basics).

 

My suggestion is to learn the basic functions of the TMS, DMS, CMS, Coolie Hat, China Hat, Boat Switch, pinkie switch (etc). If you don't have an actual Warthog HOTAS, you'll need to grasp those functions before you can understand how they transfer over to your control interface.

 

Some tutorials on youtube do describe the keyboard equivalent to the various inputs- but that doesn't get you further ahead. Once you get into the MP environment most people who will be able to help you will be giving you actual controller references (some guys know the keyboard shortcuts but they're few and far between.)

 

If a guy with basic knowledge comes into our server and asks a question, most will answer "China hat forward long or equivalent" (example)... it helps if you understand what the china hat does in its various functions so that when you assign a "china hat" to your joystick, you choose something that you'll be able to remember is the china hat.

Edited September 2, 2013 by ENO

[Leviathan]

Generally the hardest thing at the beginning with a study sim like the A-10c is, as so often in life, to get started.

 

First to get started with the theory: reading the manual/watching youtube videos, learning the systems and terminologies,

and then to get started with utililizing your new knowledge by creating a little training mission in the editor to learn and apply things like weapons delivery, even though they might seem complicated and frustrating at first.

 

But with this effort, which needs a little bit of discipline at the beginning, comes the reward. The Sim really gets interesting when you are able to use it (in combat).

 

Personally the first thing I do with every aircraft I'm new to, is to learn how to land it properly. What's any flying and fighting skill good for, when every landing attempt ends with a crippled aircraft? Luckily landing the A-10 is not that hard (due to the TVV and AoA indexer, watch/read tutorials on these!), and after 10-20 good landings, you should move on to more interesting stuff.

 

Next would be to read about the names, location (key binds) and functions of the HOTAS commands (there is a good, comprehensive chapter about this in the manual). Really important are TMS up/right, DMS and the China hat, as well as NWS (Nose Wheel Steering).

At the same time it might be worth to take a look at basic ILS landings and basic TAD/Nav skills (e.g. cycling through Steerpoints, zooming in and out on the TAD), just to get the basics of navigation. Any of these turms can be easily found and explained by doing a little search in the manual .pdf)

 

For weapons a good start might be to just learn about the GAU-8 and FFARs, as one can have some easy fun, by just blasting things away with unguided rockets and 30mm rounds. Now that the first delight of blowing virtual things up is quenched, it might be time to familiarize yourself with TGP, Mavericks, guided and unguided bombs. Important are the concepts of CCRP (level/toss delivery) and CCIP (dive delivery) for using bombs and rockets (although P*Funk wants to trivialize the worth of CCRP bombing, both methods are important and rewarding). Usefull to get confident with weapons delivery is, to understand the effect time and space, and thus speed, have on the ability to find and engage targets. It's not fun to always/often overshoot an enemy target, not being able to kill it in one run, only because the preparations for it took too long. It's better to approach things more slowly (if the threat level allows for it) and having time to set things up and acquire your targets properly than being in a hurry and losing track of whats going on around.

 

The last stage of basics one might want to learn, are things like CDU mangagement (input of JTAC and bullseye coordinates), using the sidewinders to shoot down some helis etc. and of course using the counter-measures (flares, chaffs, ECM jammer), skills that are are needed in most missions or just for the purpose of completeness.

 

The real fun starts, ones these basics are learned (it really doesn't take that much time to learn them, but to perfect them). The more advanced stuff includes trying out some real life procedures, playing around with emergencies, perfecting the flight skills (coordinated turns, aerobatics, formation flying), as well as some more difficult things, like Air Refueling.

 

Hope, this helps a little bit to see what things are needed to learn and how all this could be approached. I agree, that it is important to perfect flying skills and understanding what makes complete (virtual) airmanship, but the danger is that one delays the theory and learning things a little bit too much and then loses enthusiasm for the sim, because of the frustration of not being abel to do this or that yet (e.g. delivering the most basic kind of ordnance).

[shagrat]

No mainly its because some people are utterly incapable of using CCIP and never learn to manage their kite correctly because the CCRP system is immensely forgiving.

Agreed, my point was: there is nothing wrong or "uncool" with using CCRP. It is good for high altitiude deliveries with guided bombs, and a mission planned like that, should be executed like that.

I would not say CCRP is "forgiving" try CCRP with Mk-82 or Mk-82AIR in Hi Drag... wind correction my ass. :D

 

Sometimes it just sounds like "Real men do CCIP! CCRP is for whiners!"

 

People who are overly reliant on CCRP are also huge TGP whores. They stare through this narrow soda straw the whole time, obsessed with mark points and using B/W HOT to find stuff and end up with shit SA as a result.

Yep, SA is a big problem, not only for newbies. I agree bad habits are easily acquired.

Again I would argue it is not a general problem of the TGP or CCRP use. Both are useful tools especially the TGP, only you need to know when to use it and when not.

Dive bombing with TGP is pretty useless, On the other hand marking out SAMs and ground threats with the TGP prior to an attack run is essential!

 

Mk1 eyeball beats the TGP when skimming the battlefield at 8000 ft though! :thumbup:

 

While I have no clue what current doctrine is, I would imagine CCIP and CCRP have equal value depending on the situation. Using CCRP when doing a pop up attack from 300 feet above the ground would certainly be interesting.

Hmm, I like to point out Wags' brilliant toss bombing attack with CCRP here, but yes, CCIP and CCRP are depending on situation or effectivness in a given scenario.

 

 

(...)Ultimately the art of delivery is always practiced in its BALLSIEST manner so that they know what they're doing. I can only hope that the F-35 won't make dive bombing obsolete entirely. :P

Absolutly, especially that in a longer engagement in DCS you likely get hit and without the shiny TGP or when you need to react quickly, these training and skills pay off big time - e.g. punch in CBU-97 manually and drop them in front of the tanks rolling to your frontline :thumbup:

[Evil.Bonsai]

I need to try this. Do the CBU's fly up out of the HOF then back down into the HOF? The resolution was a bit low and couldn't tell. Seems the canister would either not open if released below HOF or open immediately. Will have to try this later.

[PFunk1606688187]

Yep, SA is a big problem, not only for newbies. I agree bad habits are easily acquired.

Again I would argue it is not a general problem of the TGP or CCRP use. Both are useful tools especially the TGP, only you need to know when to use it and when not.

Dive bombing with TGP is pretty useless, On the other hand marking out SAMs and ground threats with the TGP prior to an attack run is essential!

 

Mk1 eyeball beats the TGP when skimming the battlefield at 8000 ft though! :thumbup:

 

This is why in my Arma clan the newbies are mostly forced to use iron sights in stead of ACOGs. Its not because ACOGs are bad or for pussies. Its because people who are over reliant on their scopes for augmenting their SA never learn to have their heads on a swivel. I find its easier to promote a good battlefield awareness by keeping them zoomed out because their field of view is wider so they notice things happening around them. Once that habit is there great, have a scope.

 

I feel the exact same way about the TGP and deliveries that are heavily reliant on it.

 

As for CCRP and dumb bombs, isn't there a scuttlebutt around right now about how it doesn't accurately account for the wind in game?

[shagrat]

As for CCRP and dumb bombs, isn't there a scuttlebutt around right now about how it doesn't accurately account for the wind in game?

Yes! But it is about the LASTE wind layer option having no effect. In general the wind correction is implemented and should work, only manual adjustment for wind layers doesn't work...:smartass:

 

I found just by aligning yourself upwind / downwind rather than crosswind before the drop improves accuracy tremendously... basically that is "environmental awarenes" :D

[shagrat]

I need to try this. Do the CBU's fly up out of the HOF then back down into the HOF? The resolution was a bit low and couldn't tell. Seems the canister would either not open if released below HOF or open immediately. Will have to try this later.

Recommended low HOF and usually the release is high enough to not open the cannister immediately. Another argument for low HOF is to reduce the spread to ensure good hits - saturate a small area with bomblets... it looks easy when Wags does it,but it isn't, I can tell you. Precise flying,good alignment with target, careful not to oversteer in the pop up, now throw in a SAM engaging you the moment you rise above the horizon and it gets a bit stressful.:music_whistling:

[PFunk1606688187]

Another argument in favour of a low HOF is the fact that it seems the LASTE system doesn't account for the drift of the bomblets. :P