Silent hunting in a russian plane

[GGTharos]

Yes, it's 7 seconds long -precicely- so that you have to look time to look at your RWR and locate the spike in case of a momentary flash.

 

This is quite deliberate in the RWR systems of both sides - essentially the contact is maintained for a short time after the actual transmission ceases.

[Ironhand]

Yes, it's 7 seconds long -precicely- so that you have to look time to look at your RWR and locate the spike in case of a momentary flash.

 

This is quite deliberate in the RWR systems of both sides - essentially the contact is maintained for a short time after the actual transmission ceases.

OK. A 7 second decay is exactly right for a momentary spike on the American RWR. I forgot to consider decay time. However, 7 seconds is 1 second short for the Russian equipment which models an 8 second decay. Are you sure it's 7 seconds on the Russian equipment as well? If so, then it may not be a momentary spike that the sim models as decaying. Don't know if this really makes any difference or not in helping to isolate the bug. At this point I'm just curious.

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

Of the actual timing implemented I'm not certain ... I knew it was in the vicinity of 6 seconds ... it may be that the retention was modelled the same for both systems.

[Maximus_G]

Guys, as you're in ED testers team, it's your privilege to post a bug report :)

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I'll report the lack of indication of the system switch ... do the tracks posted here show this?

[Ironhand]

Yeah, I'll report the lack of indication of the system switch ... do the tracks posted here show this?

Yup. No indication. But it's not the system switch being modeled.

 

Oh, and in regard to your previous post, the decay time modeled in the sim is different for the two systems.

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

So what's going on then? I'm confused ... are we having a system switch which isn't properly represented, or something else happening here?

[Ironhand]

So what's going on then? I'm confused ... are we having a system switch which isn't properly represented, or something else happening here?

GG,

 

My working hypothesis is that, if it were a system switch to radar being modeled, the same thing would happen in single player and the AI would round on you. It doesn't. So it's not a matter of a system switch with missing HUD representation. If the system switched to radar, the radar would stay on until you turned it off. It wouldn't be a momentary spike that decays in 7-8 seconds depending on the equipment. The radar isn't turning on. (In fact I discovered this morning that, in single player, once you have an EOS lock, you can turn on the radar and the AI doesn't respond. Now, isn't that interesting?) It's almost as if the lock itself breaking is for some reason being represented--at least in online play.

 

I've lived through too many versions of this sim, so help me out. Didn't there used to be a switch to radar, if the EOS lock was broken? Perhaps there's a ghost of coding left behind somewhere. It causes the spike and then the new coding says: "Wait a minute. No. That's not supposed to happen." And the spike decays. At least that's how I interpret it in layman's terms.

 

Rich

[peterj]

It's in well-known Su-27 flight manual.

 

Also, all these things can be seen in it's cockpit.

 

Weapons system switch for 7 positions:

 

fail-safe mode:

Ф0,

 

nav mode:

nav,

 

bvr modes:

ols - sets eos master mode

rls - sets radar master mode

 

wvr modes:

vert

opt

shlem

 

------

 

And 2 swithes also, turning radar ("izluch-otkl") and laser rangefinder ("ld") ON and OFF.

Interresting, what about the radar/eos slave modes you were talking about?

 

Anyone who can read the manual, It would be nice if you could try find out how i really works and refer to the manual. I'll see if I can find or Babelfish something :)

[GGTharos]

GG,

 

My working hypothesis is that, if it were a system switch to radar being modeled, the same thing would happen in single player and the AI would round on you. It doesn't. So it's not a matter of a system switch with missing HUD representation. If the system switched to radar, the radar would stay on until you turned it off. It wouldn't be a momentary spike that decays in 7-8 seconds depending on the equipment. The radar isn't turning on. (In fact I discovered this morning that, in single player, once you have an EOS lock, you can turn on the radar and the AI doesn't respond. Now, isn't that interesting?) It's almost as if the lock itself breaking is for some reason being represented--at least in online play.

 

I've lived through too many versions of this sim, so help me out. Didn't there used to be a switch to radar, if the EOS lock was broken? Perhaps there's a ghost of coding left behind somewhere. It causes the spike and then the new coding says: "Wait a minute. No. That's not supposed to happen." And the spike decays. At least that's how I interpret it in layman's terms.

 

Rich

 

Alright, here's my understanding of what's -supposed- to happen.

 

Quite simply, once you lose lock with one system, the other attemps to lock on.

 

I believe also that your primary system will resume tracking and shut off the other one once it reacquires - the primary would be the one you acquired the target with first. Note that I'm not 100% on this one.

 

 

So, what you're saying, is that the EOS spikes the target when it -shouldn't-? Also, don't take AI as an indicator too seriously :( They do not have their systems 'modelled' quite like we do :(

[emenance]

I have been playing this since day one at my own pace. GG your right AI can screw up but i would say after all this time its over 75 % reliable that if radar is on for 2 seconds the target is going to turn around to fire.

[GGTharos]

Yes, but that is as it should be ... so are we looking at a bug here, or just something that people don't like to happen? ...

[Ironhand]

Alright, here's my understanding of what's -supposed- to happen.

 

Quite simply, once you lose lock with one system, the other attemps to lock on.

This most definitely is not currently happening in single player. If you lose the EOS lock, there is no indication of any sort--HUD designation, radar scan cone, or AI reaction--that the radar has turned on.

 

I believe also that your primary system will resume tracking and shut off the other one once it reacquires - the primary would be the one you acquired the target with first. Note that I'm not 100% on this one.

I don't know if that's how it should or should not happen either. But without the radar turning on in the first place, it's not being turned off when EOS reacquires. And the secondary shutting down when the primary reacquires is definitely not happening online either.

 

 

So, what you're saying, is that the EOS spikes the target when it -shouldn't-? Also, don't take AI as an indicator too seriously :( They do not have their systems 'modelled' quite like we do :(

I'm saying that the EOS dropping it's lock spikes the target when it shouldn't. Either that and it's not spiking it in the manner it should. How's that for confusing? That's because I don't know if the radar should come on or not. But it isn't turning on in the sim in single player or online either. If it were, you'd get far more than a spike on the RWR that lasts for only a fraction of a second.

 

Rich

[Ironhand]

Yes, but that is as it should be ... so are we looking at a bug here, or just something that people don't like to happen? ...

Bug.

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

Alright, I think I udnerstand now.

 

BTW, I think you have to 'turn on' the radar for it to take over from EOS ... it won't be active until eos loses lock, IIRC.

[Ironhand]

BTW, I think you have to 'turn on' the radar for it to take over from EOS ... it won't be active until eos loses lock, IIRC.

OK. Now it's my turn to be confused. What's this in reference to? Are you saying that you must turn on the radar yourself in order for it to take over if EOS loses lock?

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

I believe that this may be the case, yes.

[Ironhand]

OK. That would nicely explain what I've been seeing. Once I have EOS lock, I can turn my radar on and the AI does not react. Evidently the radar is modeled as being in some sort of standby mode and not pulsing. This makes sense and is yet another indication that the momentary EOS-broken-lock spike is a bug. No one has turned their radar on after they EOS locked the target.

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

Alright ... let's see if ED can bust this bug :)

[Ironhand]

Thank you. You have control. :D

 

Rich

[Maximus_G]

Interresting, what about the radar/eos slave modes you were talking about?

 

As GGTharos said - quite simply, once you lose lock with one system, the other attemps to lock on.

 

This is my understanding of Su-27 flight manual and MiG-29 combat use manual. Some things there are not stated directly, so they're to be figured out.

 

The pilot selects one of the modes, then turns the radar antenna on, if needed. Additionally, in the MiG there's a switch setting selected system to work alone or together with the other (called ВЗМД.ТОРМОЗ / БЕЗ ТОРМ.)

 

So, when performing a silent attack, it's needed to set the "eos" mode, keep the radar off and set the system coordination mode to OFF in the MiG.

 

And if the pilot chooses to search and attack the target using his radar, he should set the weapons system to "radar" mode, then turn on the radar, then choose the system coordination mode in the MiG.

 

Example: we got both systems working, radar-master mode. Find the target and lock on it. BVR fight in progress, our and bogey's planes are both maneuvering.

Our radar tracks the target, EOS looks at the same place. At some moment the target puts on AB and turns to 90 deg. course to us. Our radar looses its lock, but eos keeps it, so we can continue our attack. Of course our radar shouldn't go OFF, it should try to reacquire the target looking at the same direction, as EOS does.

[S77th-RYKE]

OK. Now it's my turn to be confused. What's this in reference to? Are you saying that you must turn on the radar yourself in order for it to take over if EOS loses lock?

 

Rich

I believe that this may be the case, yes.

 

That hasn't been my experience... radar does switch on automatically . From an OFF position before switching EOS ON .

 

Alright ... let's see if ED can bust this bug .

 

Thanks for reporting it GG , can't wait to find out what ED says about that.

 

so let's recap

 

1- EOS switches to active radar without any indication to pilot it has done so is a BUG .

 

2- The option to turn radar OFF and make sure it doesn't switch ON when EOS loses lock is an inadequate level of modelling.

 

see Maximus_G 's quote of manual and attachment on page 1 .

 

Would be really nice if this could be modeled correctly in the future .

 

Peterj , thanks for the tracks :) and thank you all for your valuable input.

[504Goon]

1- EOS switches to active radar without any indication to pilot it has done so is a BUG .

 

2- The option to turn radar OFF and make sure it doesn't switch ON when EOS loses lock is an inadequate level of modelling.

 

Second that. I experienced #1 yesterday with my squadmate. I had him on EOS lock, and when he throttled down, he reported a spike (lock) from his six, with no one else beeing there than me, and my HUD still displayed beeing on EOS. And according to the 29 manual, the second one is how it is in the real thing.

 

I can make a track of this one as soon as my squad wakes up..:)

[Prophet_169th]

OK. That would nicely explain what I've been seeing. Once I have EOS lock, I can turn my radar on and the AI does not react. Evidently the radar is modeled as being in some sort of standby mode and not pulsing. This makes sense and is yet another indication that the momentary EOS-broken-lock spike is a bug. No one has turned their radar on after they EOS locked the target.

 

Rich

 

I have sent tracks to Han, prior to me being in the beta test team on this bug.

 

One way you know that the radar is active though, is that you can select SARH when you turn the radar on.

 

So in HMTD in EOS, only T on left of cockpit. You can select 73/77/ET, but no SARH. Lock target, turn radar ON, so now T, A and N (also F if friendly)on left of HUD. But target doesnt get a lock warning. If you lock target when radar is on, then they will get lock warning.

 

And I personally just see this as a lack of avionics modelling, versus a bug. There are just a lot of avionics options that we dont have. I am sure they are working on making things better though in the future.

[Ironhand]

S77th-RYKE and (504)Goon,

 

Please clarify this for me because it makes all the difference in the world. For how long does the target see you on his RWR?

 

If it is for 7-8 seconds, the radar is not being modeled as turning on. That display time is the decay time of a spike lasting for only a fraction of a second. If he sees you until you press "I" to turn your radar off, then you are correct and the radar is modeled as turning on.

 

(504)Goon,

 

I'd love to see tracks of the same fight from both the attacker's and target's cockpits. It'll be interesting to see how long those spikes last.

 

 

Prophet_169th,

 

HMTD....In peterj's track he has R-27ER's selected when he presses the "O" key and they remain selected. But he was in BVR mode. In my own experiments yesterday, I was able to select IR and SARH missiles both prior to EOS locking the target and while locked. But I was also in BVR mode because the target was far enough ahead that I couldn't see him. As I just realized after reading your post, HMTD behaves differently. Is the target's RWR experience different depending on what mode you are in as well? It could be that there are two different results depending on what A2A mode is selected.

 

Rich