Silent hunting in a russian plane

[RvETito]

Radar & EOS

 

Here's my understanding of how these systems work on the real MiG-29:

 

If you've putted the switch "ВЗМД. ТОРМОЗ- БЕЗ ТОРМ." in "ВЗМД. ТОРМОЗ" position and have selected EOS as primary sensor the radar ramains slaved to the EOS and is ready to go active if EOS loses lock(the target goes into a cloud, comes head on etc.). When this happens the target will be quiet well illuminated and warned about you. If that switch is in "БЕЗ ТОРМ." position then the radar will stay on stand-by(if haven't been switched off)

Also, the radar performs another task while slaved to the EOS- if the range to the target is more than 10km the radar transmits very short pulses(bursts) with very low power and thus measuring the distance to the target, bacause the EOS can only determine it's azimuth and the elevation. When the target is within 10km the radar goes to stand-by and doesn't transmit a bit, the target distance is provided by the EOS's laser rangefinder. I've read that these short pulses are claimed to be very hard to detect by RW systems, but I also know that these systems are very sensitive and can detect electromagnetic waves with very low power, so I can't say for sure if these pulses could be detected by the RWR system.

[504Goon]

(504)Goon,

 

I'd love to see tracks of the same fight from both the attacker's and target's cockpits. It'll be interesting to see how long those spikes last.

 

Ok, both tracks should be on your mailbox now:)

[Prophet_169th]

S77th-RYKE and (504)Goon,

 

Please clarify this for me because it makes all the difference in the world. For how long does the target see you on his RWR?

 

If it is for 7-8 seconds, the radar is not being modeled as turning on. That display time is the decay time of a spike lasting for only a fraction of a second. If he sees you until you press "I" to turn your radar off, then you are correct and the radar is modeled as turning on.

 

(504)Goon,

 

I'd love to see tracks of the same fight from both the attacker's and target's cockpits. It'll be interesting to see how long those spikes last.

 

 

Prophet_169th,

 

HMTD....In peterj's track he has R-27ER's selected when he presses the "O" key and they remain selected. But he was in BVR mode. In my own experiments yesterday, I was able to select IR and SARH missiles both prior to EOS locking the target and while locked. But I was also in BVR mode because the target was far enough ahead that I couldn't see him. As I just realized after reading your post, HMTD behaves differently. Is the target's RWR experience different depending on what mode you are in as well? It could be that there are two different results depending on what A2A mode is selected.

 

Rich

 

I believe it may have something to do with HMTD mode. Since in BVR, you dont have both up. But I think it is that way for all CAC modes.

[Ironhand]

(504)Goon,

 

Thanks. I received them and ran through them once. Were you manually turning the radar "on" and "off" during the first part of your flight? I see an "I" indication on the HUD from time to time. It no longer appears after disappearing for the last time at 12:06:48. Preliminary results are suggesting an 8 second decay of the lock indication on the RWS. What's really interesting here is that, when peterj's lock was broken in his track, the target's (F-15) RWR indicated a search radar spike that decayed in the requisit 7 seconds seen on American equipment.

 

So either 1) initially manually turning on your radar to lock Grizzly's MiG alters what displays on the RWS or 2) the RWS and RWR display a different type of spike. Both, however, seem to be displaying a similar decay of a transient spike. I need to run through these again to double check my numbers and confirm observations.

 

AirTito,

 

Very interesting information.

 

Rich

[504Goon]

I didn't switch the radar on manually at any stage when i was trailing Grizz. Radar will try to aquire the target if the EOS cannot maintain the lock anymore. The last time i lost the lock completely, Grizzly reported a lock warning on the RWR, and at that time my HUD displayed only the EOS search image, with absolutely no sign of radar beeing active.

 

Edit: Just reviewed the tracks, and at time 12:09:38 you can see me loosing EOS lock, and Grizzlys RWR is giving a lock warning. That's pretty much all that was meant to be in these tracks. At that time, Grizzly pulls throttle back to idle, which makes me loose the lock, but for some reason, my radar locks him up momentarily, but doesn't give me any indication of what's happening. All other spikes in the track can be disregarded.

[S77th-RYKE]

S77th-RYKE and (504)Goon,

 

Please clarify this for me because it makes all the difference in the world. For how long does the target see you on his RWR?

 

If it is for 7-8 seconds, the radar is not being modeled as turning on. That display time is the decay time of a spike lasting for only a fraction of a second. If he sees you until you press "I" to turn your radar off, then you are correct and the radar is modeled as turning on.

Rich

 

I will make a track tonite Rich .

[Prophet_169th]

I wonder if this is similar to when you try and lock a target with radar, and it does for a split second, but doesnt hold. Target still gets lock warning.

 

Could it be, that the radar tries for a lock, cant get it. But still sends the warning?

[peterj]

I wonder if this is similar to when you try and lock a target with radar, and it does for a split second, but doesnt hold. Target still gets lock warning.

 

Could it be, that the radar tries for a lock, cant get it. But still sends the warning?

IIRC this only happends in the MiG?

 

But it's true that the MiG-29(S) will give a lock warning if you try to lock, even if no lock is established, and this is what appears happen when you loose EOS lock (outside radar lock range); radar is turned on - tries to lock - radar is turned off

 

S77th-RYKE, np, good find :)

 

Maximus_G, thanks for the info.

On another note, is the Su-27 and/or Mig-29 tactical manuals available in digital form, if so could you PM me.

[emenance]

Here's my understanding of how these systems work on the real MiG-29:

 

If you've putted the switch "ВЗМД. ТОРМОЗ- БЕЗ ТОРМ." in "ВЗМД. ТОРМОЗ" position and have selected EOS as primary sensor the radar ramains slaved to the EOS and is ready to go active if EOS loses lock(the target goes into a cloud, comes head on etc.). When this happens the target will be quiet well illuminated and warned about you. If that switch is in "БЕЗ ТОРМ." position then the radar will stay on stand-by(if haven't been switched off)

Also, the radar performs another task while slaved to the EOS- if the range to the target is more than 10km the radar transmits very short pulses(bursts) with very low power and thus measuring the distance to the target, bacause the EOS can only determine it's azimuth and the elevation. When the target is within 10km the radar goes to stand-by and doesn't transmit a bit, the target distance is provided by the EOS's laser rangefinder. I've read that these short pulses are claimed to be very hard to detect by RW systems, but I also know that these systems are very sensitive and can detect electromagnetic waves with very low power, so I can't say for sure if these pulses could be detected by the RWR system.

 

Ok then we want the OPTION to turn it off completely when in EOS. Or rather an OPT IN for auto radar after EOS lock failure.

[GGTharos]

Yes, us F-15 guys would like a whole load of avionics 'options' too. Get in line! ;)

 

Disclaimer: This is just a lame bait, I'm by no means saying that ED is adding anything to anything. If you interpret my post as such, it's your own problem! ;)

[Maximus_G]

On another note, is the Su-27 and/or Mig-29 tactical manuals available in digital form, if so could you PM me.

http://www.airwar.ru/other/bibl/mig29um.html

http://www.airwar.ru/other/bibl/su27sk_rle.html

[Ironhand]

Just reviewed the tracks, and at time 12:09:38 you can see me loosing EOS lock, and Grizzlys RWR is giving a lock warning. That's pretty much all that was meant to be in these tracks...(Snipped)...All other spikes in the track can be disregarded.

Yes it seems to be a transient spike lasting only a fraction of a second. The 8 seconds of lock indicated on the RWR is the decay of the original short duration spike.

 

I will make a track tonite Rich .

Thanks. I'll be looking for it.

 

I wonder if this is similar to when you try and lock a target with radar, and it does for a split second, but doesnt hold. Target still gets lock warning. Could it be, that the radar tries for a lock, cant get it. But still sends the warning?

Perhaps. But it seems strange that no radar lock was possible each time. Unfortunately, pressing CTRL-Q to take control of online tracks doesn't work. So I can't take control and check if the target is lockable on radar in the tracks I have. The folks flying online would have to do that test themselves.

 

But it's true that the MiG-29(S) will give a lock warning if you try to lock, even if no lock is established, and this is what appears happen when you loose EOS lock (outside radar lock range); radar is turned on - tries to lock - radar is turned off

Has anyone tried to verify that the target was not lockable on radar when EOS lock its lost? I was under the impression that EOS had less range than radar in this regard. Yet you seem to be saying that, if EOS can't lock it, neither can radar. While I would agree that there are times when this will be true, I find it hard to believe that it's always true. Or even usually true.

 

Anyway, it's been a long and tiring day where nothing went as planned. My brain turned to mush about an hour ago and right now I can't think my way out of a paper bag. So I'm calling it a night.

 

Rich

[GGTharos]

EOS has less range yes, WHEN NOT LOOKING AT AFTERBURNERS or the rear end of an aircraft in general. But Radar is also sensitive to doppler effects ... chasing a rapidly retreating target shreds your radar range to nothing - and if he's the same speed to you or close to, the radar won't lock on even if he's right on your nose.

[D-Scythe]

EOS has less range yes, WHEN NOT LOOKING AT AFTERBURNERS or the rear end of an aircraft in general. But Radar is also sensitive to doppler effects ... chasing a rapidly retreating target shreds your radar range to nothing - and if he's the same speed to you or close to, the radar won't lock on even if he's right on your nose.

 

What? Rapidly retreating targets provide doppler for the radar to work, so why would it "shred radar range to nothing"?

 

The only two situations where a doppler radar can lose a target to clutter is when the target is flying perpendicular to the radar (where the target is lost to main lobe clutter), and when the target is flying away but closure rate between the radar and the target is zero (target rejected as side lobe clutter).

[Harven]

That's why he said "chasing a rapidly retreating target"

[D-Scythe]

That's why he said "chasing a rapidly retreating target"

 

Your radar will easily be able to pick up a rapidly retreating target. It's if your chasing a target that is moving at exactly the same speed you are that causes problems for the radar.

 

Granted, range will be shorter in a tail chase scenario, since MPRFs just can't pick out targets at as far away as HPRF can with head on targets, but it certainly wouldn't be THAT much shorter. It should still be well past BVR for an APG-63/70.

[S77th-GOYA]

How close to the chasing plane's speed must the runner be travelling in order to disappear from the chaser's radar?

[GGTharos]

+/-25kts last I checked.

[GGTharos]

Your radar will easily be able to pick up a rapidly retreating target. It's if your chasing a target that is moving at exactly the same speed you are that causes problems for the radar.

 

Granted, range will be shorter in a tail chase scenario, since MPRFs just can't pick out targets at as far away as HPRF can with head on targets, but it certainly wouldn't be THAT much shorter. It should still be well past BVR for an APG-63/70.

 

With lock range being -much- shorter than detection range in-game, it doesn't does't matter. Your range gets cut to ribbons.

[peterj]

Has anyone tried to verify that the target was not lockable on radar when EOS lock its lost? I was under the impression that EOS had less range than radar in this regard. Yet you seem to be saying that, if EOS can't lock it, neither can radar. While I would agree that there are times when this will be true, I find it hard to believe that it's always true. Or even usually true.

All my tests where made in rear aspect, here's som figures (against AI, but i hope it's the same)

 

Detection ranges at 4000 m

 

Su-27 -> F-15 (ECM on)

EOS (BURNER) 74 km

EOS (low thrust*) 36 km

RADAR set to MED 33 km

 

* low enought to hold 400 km/h GS

 

Su-27 -> Su-27 (no ecm)

RADAR MED 40 km

[D-Scythe]

With lock range being -much- shorter than detection range in-game, it doesn't does't matter. Your range gets cut to ribbons.

 

Actually, for western radars according to Swingkid, there should be no difference in lock range and detection range. When you lock a target, you're putting as much radar energy, if not more, on target than if your radar was just scanning the skies for targets.

 

Unfortunately, there's a balance issue here. Russian radars operate differently from U.S. radars, as they are of a different type, and they do have the problem of lock range being less than detection range. However, like the F-15C's TWS mode, I don't see this being fixed anytime soon.