DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[rel4y]

Nice list rel4y. So 35 squadrons of Spitfire IXs.

 

[...]By 12 August 1944, 16 Squadrons in A.D.G.B. had been modified to to operate with 150 grade fuel. 41

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

 

So approximately 1/2 of the Spitfire IX squadrons were using 150PN fuel.

 

It would be worth reading the link to dispel the misinformation some have been posting.

 

Well not exactly MiloMorai. Out of these 16 squadrons I think only two were Spitfire Mk IXs. Take a look at the last paper you quoted. Or did I miss something?

Also the list I posted is just 2nd TAF and does not include the whole ADGB list. ADGB should have had a total of 10 squadrons MK IXs (HF, LF & early models) in June 44.

 

From what I have read there did seem to be quite a lot of issues with Merlins and heavily leaded 150 grade fuel. I still think the spit will hold its own against any opponent atm.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Krupi]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

 

Scroll down to 2nd TAF...

 

Essentially what that says is in January/February most RAF squadrons on the continent were or had upgraded engines to use 150 grade fuel.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Krupi

[MiloMorai]

Well not exactly MiloMorai. Out of these 16 squadrons I think only two were Spitfire Mk IXs. Take a look at the last paper you quoted. Or did I miss something?

 

From what I have read there did seem to be quite a lot of issues with Merlins and heavily leaded 150 grade fuel. I still think the spit will hold its own against any opponent atm.

 

Yes, I misunderstood what was said. It was in no way an attempt to deceive as some have said.

[rel4y]

I didnt take it as bad intentions, sometimes one just overlooks stuff. I think its pretty obvious that by January 45 a significant (probably most) Spits were flying on 150 grade and 25 boost.

 

So are there any graphs for 25" climb rate around? It is probably a beast! :joystick:

[HiJack]

I didnt take it as bad intentions, sometimes one just overlooks stuff. I think its pretty obvious that by January 45 a significant (probably most) Spits were flying on 150 grade and 25 boost.

 

So are there any graphs for 25" climb rate around? It is probably a beast! :joystick:

By 12 August 1944, 16 Squadrons in A.D.G.B. had been modified to to operate with 150 grade fuel.

[MiloMorai]

I didnt take it as bad intentions, sometimes one just overlooks stuff. I think its pretty obvious that by January 45 a significant (probably most) Spits were flying on 150 grade and 25 boost.

 

So are there any graphs for 25" climb rate around? It is probably a beast! :joystick:

 

Didn't take it as you did.

 

Yes http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html

[rel4y]

29 m/s at deck!?!?! You have got to be sh*tting me! That is an ungodly jet like climb rate.. 25.8 m/s up to 500ft sounds more reasonable though. Now we just have to convince Yo-Yo. :D

 

HiJack please look at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/backfire-2.jpg! There you have your 16 squadrons, with two of them being MK IXs as we just all agreed on. :P

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[HiJack]

Interesting: :)

[Krupi]

Interesting: :)

 

I don't think all of those squadrons were fighter squadrons. I think No.9 was a bomber squadron.

[rel4y]

Yeah thats hardly interesting.. No 9 Group wasnt operational starting at latest August 4 1944 and some of the other Groups were disbanded as well. I dont think all groups mentioned even had Mk IXs. I dont see were it says these groups were using 150 grade fuel. Mind, this is a group level information and not a squadron order.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Kurfürst]

29 m/s at deck!?!?! You have got to be sh*tting me! That is an ungodly jet like climb rate.. 25.8 m/s up to 500ft sounds more reasonable though. Now we just have to convince Yo-Yo. :D

 

HiJack please look at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/backfire-2.jpg! There you have your 16 squadrons, with two of them being MK IXs as we just all agreed on. :P

 

Glad we all agree on two Squadrons, 1 and 165, being on operational trials. ;)

 

Check the tested weight on the chart, 7234 lbs, so its missing some 200 lbs (sans ammo...? of the normal take off weight). The other JL 165 testing at full weight has both closed and open radiators, the closed one produced some impressive results as well, but quite clearly with ?Moderate Supercharging (1st gear) providing +25 lbs boost was not practically possible - the 500 feet fth practically means tree hugging and afterwards your boost will fall until the 2nd gear kicks in.

 

Essentially both just reduce drag. Lower weight means lesser angle of attack is required, this induced drag is reduced, and a closed radiator of course means less parasitic drag. All aircraft will be effected by this, but the scale might not be the same. For example the P-51 or Yaks had rather tiny radiator flaps compared to the Spit or the 109, so its movement probably had less effect on drag.

[Talisman_VR]

Given the extract below and that, unless I am mistaken, the so named 'Normandy map' will include the English Channel and the South of England, I suggest that the 25lb Spit would not be out of place on the map.

I say this because ADGB defended the part of GB, including the English Channel, that will be on the WWII map provided by ED for us to fly on.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think everyone is agreed that the 25lbs Spit was used by ADGB from Spring 1944. If areas defended by ADGB will be depicted on the Normandy map, then I suggest that it follows that the 25lbs Spit will be very historical and in keeping with the map.

Just a thought :thumbup:

 

Normandy: June–August 1944[edit]

 

After the Normandy landings, some Spitfires (Griffon and Merlin engine marks) were retained in Britain to counter the V-1 flying bomb offensive in mid-1944 as part of the ADGB.[94] Supplies of a new aviation fuel, which was called "150 Grade", arrived from America in March 1944 and sufficient quantities were available to be used by ADGB fighters as the V-1 offensive started. The new fuel enabled the Rolls-Royce Merlin and Griffon engines to operate at higher boost pressures, especially at lower altitudes, for the duration of the anti-V-1 campaign.[95]

 

The above extract was taken from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_operational_history

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Kurfürst]

Yeah thats hardly interesting.. No 9 Group wasnt operational starting at latest August 4 1944 and some of the other Groups were disbanded as well. I dont think all groups mentioned even had Mk IXs. I dont see were it says these groups were using 150 grade fuel. Mind, this is a group level information and not a squadron order.

 

Its quite clear the memo was just circulated to all groups for info, in case some "Spit special" would happen to land there for any reason. Topping the tank with 130 grade or mixing the two fuels and then using the maximum boost w/o having the required fuel grade in the tanks could be catastrophic hence why the effected 1 and 165 Sqns are specifically mentioned. Read paragraph 5 and it becomes quite clear.

[Kurfürst]

If areas defended by ADGB will be depicted on the Normandy map, then I suggest that it follows that the 25lbs Spit will be very historical and in keeping with the map.

 

Technically speaking yes, but in practice? +25 lbs was simply not common at all in 1944, +18 was. In any case ED has already seems to have choosen the +18 lbs variant for the time being (and what else would they choose, when at the time there were 2 Spit IX Squads on trials / V-1 hunting vs 30+ Spit IX Squadrons operating on +18 lbs and engaging German fighters...?) so the issue seems moot.

 

Hopefully oneday selectable fuel (i.e. B-4/C-3, 130/150 grade) will be present for all aircraft, along with the über-boosts everyone is crying out for. Since as I understand mostly all thats needs to be done is some slight tuning of the engine model (greater air and fuel delivery), and the rest could be hopefully calculated correctly by the engine, it should be too hard to do 1945 scenarios as well.

[Krupi]

Given the extract below and that, unless I am mistaken, the so named 'Normandy map' will include the English Channel and the South of England, I suggest that the 25lb Spit would not be out of place on the map.

I say this because ADGB defended the part of GB, including the English Channel, that will be on the WWII map provided by ED for us to fly on.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think everyone is agreed that the 25lbs Spit was used by ADGB from Spring 1944. If areas defended by ADGB will be depicted on the Normandy map, then I suggest that it follows that the 25lbs Spit will be very historical and in keeping with the map.

Just a thought :thumbup:

 

Normandy: June–August 1944[edit]

 

After the Normandy landings, some Spitfires (Griffon and Merlin engine marks) were retained in Britain to counter the V-1 flying bomb offensive in mid-1944 as part of the ADGB.[94] Supplies of a new aviation fuel, which was called "150 Grade", arrived from America in March 1944 and sufficient quantities were available to be used by ADGB fighters as the V-1 offensive started. The new fuel enabled the Rolls-Royce Merlin and Griffon engines to operate at higher boost pressures, especially at lower altitudes, for the duration of the anti-V-1 campaign.[95]

 

The above extract was taken from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_operational_history

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Once the V1 threat had died down the fuel was used by 2nd TAF so 150 grade fuel was used more and more over France and Normandy

 

Let me find the reference to back that up :)

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Krupi

[rel4y]

Its quite clear the memo was just circulated to all groups for info, in case some "Spit special" would happen to land there for any reason. Topping the tank with 130 grade or mixing the two fuels and then using the maximum boost w/o having the required fuel grade in the tanks could be catastrophic hence why the effected 1 and 165 Sqns are specifically mentioned. Read paragraph 5 and it becomes quite clear.

 

Yeah, spot on! (Spit special :D ) 1 and 165 Sqns were using 150 fuel and exactly nada of all the other groups mentioned. I was just genuinely confused why he kept posting this..

 

I think for a timeframe before early 45 25" boost/ 150 grade fuel is not easily justified for the Spit IX. Now when thinking about fighting a K4 or D9 I think early 45 is a good timeframe and 25" boost would be a valid option. The Normandy timeframe is beyond me anyway.

 

Kurfurst, I just looked at the weights and rad settings of these tests and a maximum climb of 25-26 m/s looks about right, everything above is just fantasy.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Talisman_VR]

Its quite clear the memo was just circulated to all groups for info, in case some "Spit special" would happen to land there for any reason. Topping the tank with 130 grade or mixing the two fuels and then using the maximum boost w/o having the required fuel grade in the tanks could be catastrophic hence why the effected 1 and 165 Sqns are specifically mentioned. Read paragraph 5 and it becomes quite clear.

 

Kurfurst,

 

I am writing to correct your wrong assumption. If you read the distribution list at the top of the letter you will see all the 'action' addressees and that the one 'for information' addressee is listed in brackets.

This is the service writing convention of the time and should make it clear which units are to action and which units are included on the distribution just for information purposes. As you can see, only one unit was for 'information only' on this letter, all the others were for 'action'.

 

P.S. Note in brackets 10 Gp was for only 2 sqns.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Talisman_VR]

Technically speaking yes, but in practice? +25 lbs was simply not common at all in 1944, +18 was. In any case ED has already seems to have choosen the +18 lbs variant for the time being (and what else would they choose, when at the time there were 2 Spit IX Squads on trials / V-1 hunting vs 30+ Spit IX Squadrons operating on +18 lbs and engaging German fighters...?) so the issue seems moot.

 

Hopefully oneday selectable fuel (i.e. B-4/C-3, 130/150 grade) will be present for all aircraft, along with the über-boosts everyone is crying out for. Since as I understand mostly all thats needs to be done is some slight tuning of the engine model (greater air and fuel delivery), and the rest could be hopefully calculated correctly by the engine, it should be too hard to do 1945 scenarios as well.

 

Although, I suggest that it could be fair to say that it was very common indeed for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade fuel for a large part of 1944; therefore, since the ADGB area of operations is to be included on the Normandy map, the Spit 25lbs would not be out of place. Also, after it was common for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade it was then common for 2nd TAF to use 150 grade fuel. This would appear to suggest that 150 grade fuel would be a fair inclusion on the map that ED is providing. Particularly as late war cutting edge fuels are being modelled for the LW types by ED; why leave the cutting edge fuel out for the Allied side if it is provided for the Axis types being sold?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Krupi]

Technically speaking yes, but in practice? +25 lbs was simply not common at all in 1944, +18 was. In any case ED has already seems to have choosen the +18 lbs variant for the time being (and what else would they choose, when at the time there were 2 Spit IX Squads on trials / V-1 hunting vs 30+ Spit IX Squadrons operating on +18 lbs and engaging German fighters...?) so the issue seems moot.

 

Hopefully oneday selectable fuel (i.e. B-4/C-3, 130/150 grade) will be present for all aircraft, along with the über-boosts everyone is crying out for. Since as I understand mostly all thats needs to be done is some slight tuning of the engine model (greater air and fuel delivery), and the rest could be hopefully calculated correctly by the engine, it should be too hard to do 1945 scenarios as well.

 

You are missing the point... we have operationally rare late 1944/1945 K4 and D9 flying against 1943/early 1944 spits IX. We have evidence to show that in 1944 to 1945 150grade was becoming more and more common especially in 1945.

[Krupi]

Although, I suggest that it could be fair to say that it was very common indeed for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade fuel for a large part of 1944; therefore, since the ADGB area of operations is to be included on the Normandy map, the Spit 25lbs would not be out of place. Also, after it was common for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade it was then common for 2nd TAF to use 150 grade fuel. This would appear to suggest that 150 grade fuel would be a fair inclusion on the map that ED is providing. Particularly as late war cutting edge fuels are being modelled for the LW types by ED; why leave the cutting edge fuel out for the Allied side if it is provided for the Axis types being sold?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Especially when one takes into account how rare both MW50 and C3.

[rel4y]

Especially when one takes into account how rare both MW50 and C3.

 

If one thing wasnt rare, then its MW50. Otherwise I agree with you. I am just unsure if a 25" boost Spit wouldnt be too powerful for the Axis planeset. Better turnrate, better climbrate (almost 26 m/s), better anti fighter armament than the K4 and almost the same level speed (585 kph at 850 m). Maybe 18" boost is not such a bad decision after all.

 

Particularly as late war cutting edge fuels are being modelled for the LW types by ED;

 

Would you mind telling me what exactly these cutting edge fuels are? They dont even have C3 modeled and C3 was available since the BoB.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Kurfürst]

Although, I suggest that it could be fair to say that it was very common indeed for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade fuel for a large part of 1944; therefore, since the ADGB area of operations is to be included on the Normandy map, the Spit 25lbs would not be out of place. Also, after it was common for ADGB fighters to use 150 grade it was then common for 2nd TAF to use 150 grade fuel. This would appear to suggest that 150 grade fuel would be a fair inclusion on the map that ED is providing. Particularly as late war cutting edge fuels are being modelled for the LW types by ED; why leave the cutting edge fuel out for the Allied side if it is provided for the Axis types being sold?

 

Nope on all accounts, since its all just basically fantasy. ADGB used it for a couple of months in 1944 while the V-1 campaign necessitated it, and as far as the threads topic is concerned, by only two (2) Spit IX Squadrons, then it withdraw it completely. You would be also hard pressed to find trace of these two Squadrons (nos 1 and 165) over German territory or meeting German fighters in 1944. The next substantial use is when the 2nd TAF begun converting in its Mark Niner Squadrons in February 1945.

 

BTW do you even have any German fighter in DCS? In fact they all run on B-4 fuel and a similarly 'modest' boost rating, just as the Mustang does and the Spit will...

Edited April 18, 2016 by Kurfürst

[HiJack]

Yeah, spot on! (Spit special :D ) 1 and 165 Sqns were using 150 fuel and exactly nada of all the other groups mentioned. I was just genuinely confused why he kept posting this.

By 12 August 1944, 16 Squadrons in A.D.G.B. had been modified to to operate with 150 grade fuel.

[rel4y]

By 12 August 1944, 16 Squadrons in A.D.G.B. had been modified to to operate with 150 grade fuel.

 

Youre a very special person indeed! It is really nice that for example 3 squadrons Mosquitos were converted to 150 grade, but who cares?

[HiJack]

Youre a very special person indeed! It is really nice that for example 3 squadrons Mosquitos were converted to 150 grade, but who cares?

Well Donald, can you name the squadrons?