DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[Cripple]

Thanks.

[nervousenergy]

The Spitfire is waaaaaay early right now, it might not even have its own FM at this point, or its still early. I would stress much about it, and I wouldnt use it too much for missions right now. It could have many problems.

Looking at the model and watching it fly, I'd have to say your definition of 'waaaaaay early' is somewhat broken. :smilewink:

 

It may not have a complete FM yet, but it's a long way from last year with wireframes and no textures.

[NineLine]

Looking at the model and watching it fly, I'd have to say your definition of 'waaaaaay early' is somewhat broken. :smilewink:

 

It may not have a complete FM yet, but it's a long way from last year with wireframes and no textures.

 

It may look pretty, but trust me, its pretty early in terms of being a module and even AI.

[DSR_T-800]

Yeah, the AI spitfire has no textures in the cockpit, makes weird noises and the propeller spins at a very low RPM.

[Cripple]

Ach well... just as well I've got to wait for a) the rift (or similar), and b) my pit to get finished! :P

 

Progress though. Progress is good.

[Tintin]

 

the 3D model represent a wing C with 2canon and 4 machinegun but in the description of the encyclopedia it's 2 canon and 2 cal50. Wing E. Is it an error ?

 

the engine in the encyclopedia description is a merlin 66 +18 boost but with 5750ft/min it's the merlin 66 +25 boost.

an error ?

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html

[Zilch]

I tried this thing out against my P-51. Awesome stuff!

 

I did notice that my 50 caliber hits showed up as 12.7 mm in the debriefing, but the Spit's guns show up as 7.7 mm. Is this a stand-in for the 303 British?

 

Edit: Here's the footage.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Zilch

[OutOnTheOP]

I tried this thing out against my P-51. Awesome stuff!

 

I did notice that my 50 caliber hits showed up as 12.7 mm in the debriefing, but the Spit's guns show up as 7.7 mm. Is this a stand-in for the 303 British?

 

Edit: Here's the footage.

 

.303 is 7.7mm.

 

Strictly speaking, both the British .303, the Japanese 7.7mm, and the Russian 7.62mm all shoot .310-.312 inch diameter bullets (with the grooves in the barrel being around .310 inch, and the lands being between .303 and .30 inches). I handload both Brit .303 and Japanese Arisaka 7.7mm; both use the same .310 inch diameter, 172 grain bullet.

 

The US ".30 caliber" in fact shoots .308 inch diameter bullets.

 

Caliber names aren't always precise, because sometimes they're measured from groove to groove (this is the more modern way to do it), sometimes from land to land (this method was more predominately used when black powder guns were common; the .303 was originally a black powder cartridge and uses this nomenclature), and sometimes named for the nominal diameter of the bullet before it is ever so slightly squeezed into the bore. Sometimes they call a caliber something different than it is, just to differentiate it; for example, FN's "5.7mm" is in fact a 5.56mm; it shoots the exact same diameter bullet as NATO 5.56, they just changed the name so it wasn't confused with 5.56x45mm.

 

Looks like it's the C wing then; the model and the damage on the track indicate it's 4x .303s

Edited October 4, 2015 by OutOnTheOP

[Zilch]

Yeah, true. I reload brass for my Mosin-Nagant using bullets for the 308 and 303 British. The 303 tends to run slightly bigger, which is great since I slugged my bore at. 314. It fits my rifle better than the 308's tend to.

 

Didn't know 7.7 was the same thing, though. It's this maybe the gun we're getting on our Spitfire?

[Friedrich-4B]

The British .303 Browning was the Browning .30 M1919 adapted to use the standard .303 7.7 x 56 rimmed rifle/mg cartridge, although by 1940 the British had devised rounds such as the Incendiary B Mk VI

 

Generally, the .303 wasn't quite as powerful as the standard American .30 06 (7.62 x 63) rimless ( .303 ballistics ); albeit this, of course, varied according to the bullet weight & loading etc.

 

Here's a comparison of aircraft guns of WW 2 by Tony Williams

[Kurfürst]

the engine in the encyclopedia description is a merlin 66 +18 boost but with 5750ft/min it's the merlin 66 +25 boost.

an error ?

 

The 5750 fpm climb figures best conform to the earliest RR trials with Mark IX L.F., serial no. JL 165 at +25 lbs and 160 grade fuel, albeit it should be noted that the RR trials were flown a considerably lower than normal (tested sans ammunition...?) takeoff weight 7234 lbs instead of the fully equipped takeoff weight of ca. 7450 lbs, and with the radiator shutters closed to their minimum drag position.

 

This would significantly boost climb rate compared to normal conditions and was somewhat unusual, as the British testing standard at the time was to test the aircraft at full weight and with radiator shutter open for climb (and with 95% weight correction and closed radiators for speed runs).

 

The combined effect of lowered weight and lowered drag was considerable on the results, as the same JL 165 was tested later in the standard condition, yielding 5080 fpm at +25 with full (normal) take off weight and open rads - albeit only to a couple of hundred feet high, since the supercharger really couldn't cope with maintaining this boost at altitude.

 

They have also interpolated the +25 lbs results which would interpolate to about 4200 fpm @ +18 lbs boost.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Kurfürst

[Cripple]

I tried this thing out against my P-51. Awesome stuff!

.....

 

Edit: Here's the footage.

 

Ooooooo! Thanks for sharing that. She's really is a wee beauty, even though she's not "all-grown-up" yet.:P Agile little beast too... cannot wait to fly her.

 

 

(Oh, and thanks to others for the info on calibres and HF/LF/engine variations. It's all very interesting actually.)

[Zilch]

No problem, glad someone enjoys my dumb videos. :)

 

It does get pretty confusing when talking about calibers and such.

 

As has been pointed out, a ton of machine guns, rifles and pistols all use "30 caliber" bullets of varying diameters, lengths, shapes, and mass. This can be a nightmare to figure out when you're trying to create your own load for, say, a Lee Enfield, which I think shares the same or similar casing to the Browning machine guns the Spit and Hurricane used.

 

The bullets for a 30.06, 7.62x54r (as in the Mosin-Nagant and SVD Dragunov,) 7.62x51 NATO (sometimes compatible with .308 Winchester,) 7.62x39 (as with the AK-47,) 7.62x25 Tokarev (a pistol round that also goes with the PPSH sub machine gun,) and of course .303 British are all in the same caliber but may or may not be interchangeable with each other's brass cases, powder, and primer. They also have varying diameter trends, even with bullets for the same weapon (Mosin-Nagants tend to run big, up to .315 inches, even though manuals call for .308 bullets...Slug your barrel! :) )

 

It was the "7.7" that threw me off, I've only seen it called that in the Arisaka and never researched it.

 

So, it looks like we may be getting the six gun Spitfire wing with .303/7.7/7.62/.30/7.62 Brownings. Better hit probability, I assume?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Zilch

[Friedrich-4B]

I tried this thing out against my P-51. Awesome stuff!

 

I did notice that my 50 caliber hits showed up as 12.7 mm in the debriefing, but the Spit's guns show up as 7.7 mm. Is this a stand-in for the 303 British?

 

Edit: Here's the footage.

 

Good stuff; pity you can't add "No Spitfire IXs were harmed during the making of this film"...

 

In the real world - apart from the odd "blue-on-blue" encounter during WW 2 - Israeli P-51Ds more than likely encountered Egyptian Spitfire IXs during the 1948-49 Israeli-Egypt war, although, according to this article, no Spitfires were shot down by the Mustangs. :pilotfly:

[Zilch]

If it makes anyone feel better, I did feel guilty shooting it. :)

[Cripple]

Good stuff; pity you can't add "No Spitfire IXs were harmed during the making of this film"...

 

In the real world - apart from the odd "blue-on-blue" encounter during WW 2 - Israeli P-51Ds more than likely encountered Egyptian Spitfire IXs during the 1948-49 Israeli-Egypt war, although, according to this article, no Spitfires were shot down by the Mustangs. :pilotfly:

 

Interesting Article.

 

I'm surprised that no developer (ED or 3rd) is working on a Sinai map for DCS. Between Nevada and the basic map there must be 90+% of the required textures available, and the amount of aircraft that could use it without a great suspension of disbelief is substantial: all the way from the Spit's and Mustangs in '48, through the Cold War Jets, up to a "what if?" modern shooting war scenario in that contested zone. Quite nice scenery if you've ever been there too... ;-)

 

Seriously though, you have sea, shipping, coast, mountains, desert, islands, and I don't believe it has changed too much from 1948-2018.

[Cripple]

No problem, glad someone enjoys my dumb videos. :)

 

It does get pretty confusing when talking about calibers and such.

......

 

So, it looks like we may be getting the six gun Spitfire wing with .303/7.7/7.62/.30/7.62 Brownings. Better hit probability, I assume?

 

Tell me about it! I remember when I first encountered the metric/imperial same-yet-different issues back in my teens (I was a little gun happy).

 

I'd need to double-check my info, so anyone who knows better please feel free to jump in and correct me, but IIRC the IX was going to have the double 20mm cannon wing but changed to a 20mm cannon and 2x (smaller calibre) Brownings for weight reasons. Later marks certainly had the cannon and (larger calibre) Browning in each wing... and I remember someone speculating this was due to the increased availability of the .50-cal later in the war.

 

 

(Article on the wing types here: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html )

[klem]

Tell me about it! I remember when I first encountered the metric/imperial same-yet-different issues back in my teens (I was a little gun happy).

 

I'd need to double-check my info, so anyone who knows better please feel free to jump in and correct me, but IIRC the IX was going to have the double 20mm cannon wing but changed to a 20mm cannon and 2x (smaller calibre) Brownings for weight reasons. Later marks certainly had the cannon and (larger calibre) Browning in each wing... and I remember someone speculating this was due to the increased availability of the .50-cal later in the war.

 

 

(Article on the wing types here: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html )

 

Everywhere I look I see MH434 quoted as a IXb. Strangely a careful look at the wing/cannon/machine gun patches suggest it has a C wing (now?). On the b wing the cannon and two m/guns were evenly spaced with the inboard m/gun at the inboard side of its gun bay. In the C wing the inner m/gun is moved to the outboard side of it's gun bay giving wider spacing between it and the cannon than between the two m/guns, as it appears in very photo I have seen.

 

It was built at Castle Bromwich (with a Merlin 66 engine):

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p063.html

 

According to this it was ordered as a MkVC but most were delivered as 'MkIX', presumably a front end switch but still with the C wing?

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/spitfirefactory/production.htm

 

According to this website it underwent a major rebuild in 1994/5 so if it ever was a IXb perhaps that's when it changed?

http://www.military-airshows.co.uk/spitaw.htm

[Sporg]

Is it just me, or does the MH434 not have clipped wings on this 1944 picture?

 

 

Seems like normal rounded wing tips?

 

Additionally it has a short air intake here.

 

Picture is from this thread post:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?20097-MH434-And-Her-Many-Guises&p=253926#post253926

 

Same thread MiloMorai referenced to in his post earlier:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2446222&postcount=649

[Kurfürst]

Everywhere I look I see MH434 quoted as a IXb.

 

The 'IXB' was kinda semi-official designation for the Mark IX L.F. the low altitude Merlin 66, to differentiate from the medium altitude Merlin 61/63 version, that came first. Still the 'B' had a 'C' wing of course.

[klem]

The 'IXB' was kinda semi-official designation for the Mark IX L.F. the low altitude Merlin 66, to differentiate from the medium altitude Merlin 61/63 version, that came first. Still the 'B' had a 'C' wing of course.

 

Well, we Brits wouldn't want to make it easy would we ? :)

[Kye]

They're certainly the standard tips. As excited as I am for the MkIX, I am a bit confused in that we have a plane that is not representative. 434 has never had clipped wings.

 

Have I read correctly that there are plans to incorporate both versions of the wing tips by treating the standard wingtips as 'ordinance' to get around having a second module?

 

Still can't wait to get my hands on it though! :)

 

Is it just me, or does the MH434 not have clipped wings on this 1944 picture?

 

 

Seems like normal rounded wing tips?

 

Additionally it has a short air intake here.

 

Picture is from this thread post:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?20097-MH434-And-Her-Many-Guises&p=253926#post253926

 

Same thread MiloMorai referenced to in his post earlier:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2446222&postcount=649

[Kurfürst]

Well, we Brits wouldn't want to make it easy would we ? :)

 

Yeah, apparently someone in the Supermarine/Air Ministrz Designation Department figured out that he is only required to come up with random variations of Roman numbers and letters, not necessarily following any particular order, to get his paycheck. :lol:

 

He surely had some distant relatives in the German and U.S. Ordnance Department though, who had also figured out that the job can be further simplified by just designating every piece of ordnance as '18' or 'M 1', respectively. :megalol:

[Cripple]

Yeah, apparently someone in the Supermarine/Air Ministrz Designation Department figured out that he is only required to come up with random variations of Roman numbers and letters, not necessarily following any particular order, to get his paycheck. :lol:

 

He surely had some distant relatives in the German and U.S. Ordnance Department though, who had also figured out that the job can be further simplified by just designating every piece of ordnance as '18' or 'M 1', respectively. :megalol:

 

:megalol: Made my day that. One of those "funny cos it's true" moments.

 

Nobody told me that playing DCS would require becoming a keen student of history too! :P

[NineLine]

They're certainly the standard tips. As excited as I am for the MkIX, I am a bit confused in that we have a plane that is not representative. 434 has never had clipped wings.

 

Have I read correctly that there are plans to incorporate both versions of the wing tips by treating the standard wingtips as 'ordinance' to get around having a second module?

 

Still can't wait to get my hands on it though! :)

 

Its already been reported, a while before you guys saw it ;) The stage the Spit is in, in development, they arent stressing cosmetic stuff like skins right now, it will be changed.