AIM-120C Friendly Fire

[nickexists]

I've been looking through my tacview recordings and I've noticed a few times where AIM-120C missiles fired from AI F-15's have lost their original lock and ended up locking on to and killing friendly aircraft. Is this realistic?

[Home Fries]

It depends on employment. If you shoot an AMRAAM into a crowded furball the odds of this go up. Especially if you break lock before the AMRAAM goes terminal. The earlier you break lock before the missile goes terminal, the more likely the missile will find the wrong target.

[xaoslaad]

Yes. You need to be careful about firing AMRAAM's if you have friendlies in front of you. I fired an AMRAAM and a friendlies missile uthe friendly. Not good. Learned that lesson the hard way.

[will-]

should the AI still be doing that?

[xaoslaad]

Probably not. Now that you mention it I've been blown up by the AI as well...

[will-]

speaking of this, what would be realistic? is there a rule book?

[Bandit.]

ive been wondering about this myself. wonder if they have some form of iff in real life

[will-]

the aim-120 have IFF? pretty sure the term pitpull holds water for that reason.

 

More about should the AI be firing into friendlies willingly. Or if the ROE guildlines are so to speak.

[TheMoose]

My recommendation is wait for burn through, until you get pos ID if bogey is friend or foe, but then again, some are trigger happy lol. And lets be honest in MP some find enabling ECM is good, but then again you light up like an Xmas tree when you do. I guess that would never change, and please don't lol. You remain a target until you have identified yourself to your side. This is were raygun comes in handy, if you don't reply, then you are most likely a bandit...

[GGTharos]

the aim-120 have IFF? pretty sure the term pitpull holds water for that reason.

 

More about should the AI be firing into friendlies willingly. Or if the ROE guildlines are so to speak.

 

No, there is no IFF on the missile as far as we know, and it isn't likely to be there given the potential problems with IFF. The launching aircraft has already id'ed the target ... That the AI does silly things often is a different issue. Fratricide is however a real life concern.

[mmaruda]

It seems realistic to me. Don't play much FC3, but in BMS when you go 'maddog' over the comms people get nervous. In theory, once an AMRAAM goes 'pitbull' there is little chance for the bandit to break the lock, but you should not launch at a furball since accidents happen. :)

[mvsgas]

ive been wondering about this myself. wonder if they have some form of iff in real life

 

Iff is only on the aircraft and like many other systems it is never perfect. It is dependent on transponder codes ( speaking in very general terms) If the target aircraft is not transmuting the codes or if there is malfunction, etc. it would not work. There is other way of identifying the targets, for example Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR), also by creating corridors, visual ( obviously) etc. But fratricide is a real and continuous treat with many weapons systems.

 

Anyway, any missile or weapons hitting friendlies is realistic.

Edited October 17, 2013 by mvsgas

[WildBillKelsoe]

Oh yes!!! it IS frequent and it happened to me personally. AI F-15 fired a 120 and I got plucked as I was in line with the target.

[VTJS17_Fire]

In reality, there is the possiblity, to shot off the missile (or the missile does it on it's own), when it loses it's target.

 

regards,

Fire

[Frostie]

My recommendation is wait for burn through, until you get pos ID if bogey is friend or foe, but then again, some are trigger happy lol. And lets be honest in MP some find enabling ECM is good, but then again you light up like an Xmas tree when you do. I guess that would never change, and please don't lol. You remain a target until you have identified yourself to your side. This is were raygun comes in handy, if you don't reply, then you are most likely a bandit...

 

Firing on an uknown jammer is definately a bad practice. As for the use of jammers there are many tactical advantages to be had from using them such as masking and deception.

I think the main rule for using actives is be aware of your friendlies location, in mp this can be difficult because a furball is not always evident on the radar.

[blkspade]

All the fire and forget missiles stand a chance at mis-tracking into unintended targets in close quarters. Once in MP an enemy Su-27 got team killed right next to me by an R-73. We were basically in a scissor dog fighting, and there is a good chance the missile was completely intended for me. The other guy over took me and showed no sign of panic when I locked him up at his 6. He didn't realize he hit the wrong person until it was too late.

[TAW_Blaze]

I haven't read the entire thread,

 

but if you use TWS and fire at a guy no matter if you break or not the missile will go pitbull on whatever target it finds first, even if it's a friendly. I suppose using STT could be the solution but I haven't tried if it works yet.

 

Friendly fire has been a very big concern since the desert storm/shield if not earlier, most kills happened within visual range despite having excellent BVR capability. They were more afraid of splashing a friendly than risking their own life. Also european AWACS had very little coordination with the american forces, so it was a huge mess, even during allied force.

Edited October 24, 2013 by <Blaze>

[blkspade]

I'm pretty sure the in game 120 doesn't work exactly like that. Whether in TWS or STT if you still have the bandit locked when it goes active (pitbull) it will generally guide to the bandit with an active lock. If the bandit manages to notch or spoof the missile, it will reacquire anything else if it still has the energy to maneuver. I have a tacview of an enemy 120B killing me that was shot at my wingman. We split in opposite directions, when the missile lost him, it made a sudden sharp turn to me.

 

I haven't read the entire thread,

 

but if you use TWS and fire at a guy no matter if you break or not the missile will go pitbull on whatever target it finds first, even if it's a friendly. I suppose using STT could be the solution but I haven't tried if it works yet.

 

Friendly fire has been a very big concern since the desert storm/shield if not earlier, most kills happened within visual range despite having excellent BVR capability. They were more afraid of splashing a friendly than risking their own life. Also european AWACS had very little coordination with the american forces, so it was a huge mess, even during allied force.

[TAW_Blaze]

I'm pretty sure the in game 120 doesn't work exactly like that. Whether in TWS or STT if you still have the bandit locked when it goes active (pitbull) it will generally guide to the bandit with an active lock. If the bandit manages to notch or spoof the missile, it will reacquire anything else if it still has the energy to maneuver. I have a tacview of an enemy 120B killing me that was shot at my wingman. We split in opposite directions, when the missile lost him, it made a sudden sharp turn to me.

 

I've shot friendly AI down with 120B in TWS and I didn't break away. Maybe it's just bad luck, I don't know.

[GGTharos]

You don't have to be the one breaking away, it's enough for the bandit to notch the missile.

[TAW_Blaze]

You don't have to be the one breaking away, it's enough for the bandit to notch the missile.

 

That's what I meant by bad luck. :D

[Frostie]

I'm sure it would be more logical for the seeker to only activate at the prelaunch or mcu assigned basket. Therefore only going maddog after a lost lock from pitbull.

[GGTharos]

There is a lot of stuff that would be 'better' in a lot of ways, but the problem isn't just with the missiles - there's a lot of stuff that can/needs to be done with missile seekers overall, and a lot of stuff that can/needs to be done with radar and IR physics and sensors in general.

 

The problem is quite organic, and fixing one thing breaks a bunch of other stuff.

 

I'm sure it would be more logical for the seeker to only activate at the prelaunch or mcu assigned basket. Therefore only going maddog after a lost lock from pitbull.

[blkspade]

Its better practice to bring sparrows. At least in situations where you know there is a friendly between you and the bandit, or mixed in with, you can fire that off instead. It sucks when you didn't see the friendly either in the notch or poor prf selection and fire off a 120 thinking its clear.

[Home Fries]

Or better yet, don't fire into a furball unless you are cleared by the engaged fighter (i.e. he's losing and his odds are less than the 50/50 of the missile).

 

When I'm engaging WVR in multiplayer, I always call my target and if I'm not flying with familiar folks I tell them not to engage my target until I call myself off.