Antiship missiles fail

[whitehot]

This morning i was messing around with the editor and set up a simple mission with a grisha frigate wandering about and a couple of AC with ASMs to attack it. I initially tried with SU-30s with Kh-35s. Missiles launch correctly and follow a sea-skimming profile, abt 10 mts altitude and 830 kmh. At about 2kms from the target, they climb and then dive to hit the ship in the hull, more or less at the waterline. To my dismay, the shots were regularly logget as hits, but they didn't do any damage at all. So I tried again with different missiles, launching platforms and targets and sadly drawn the following conclusions:

 

all the subsonic, sea-skimming missiles follow an identical profile (KH-35, harpoon, kormoran. The Sea Eagle just travels a little slower, at 790 kmh). all of them don't cause any damage to the targets.

 

The supersonic KH-31A correctly follows a straight line from its launcher to the target at abt. mach 2.5. In this case, again the missile hits but no damage.

 

The only missile actually causing real destruction was the KH-22, which has a unique flight profile (it climbs at very-hi altitude after launch, travels at abt. 3500 kmh then gradually decelerates while diving, hitting the target at abt 3200 kmh).

 

Now, even considering that the flyable planes in DCS have practically no ASuW missions, and that ships still haven't a big role in DCS, it's a little disappointing. If I remember correctly, ASMs worked correctly in FC2

[Rangi]

CIWS, you try to volley the ASM to overwhelm the defences. Unless something has been broken in one of the recent updates, I havnt tried ASM for a while.

[NineLine]

For the Kh-22 doing more damage, it does seem to have a significantly larger warhead than the other 2 you listed. That said, I think that there is issues that have been reported with Anti Ship Missiles and the amount of damage they do, I think ship systems are fairly simplistic at the moment, and therefore the damage modelling for the ships is probably not the best.

 

Now Wags did request what people would like to see in Navy Ops for DCS, I would hope that means we arent too far from a revamp of sorts for Naval vessels in World.

Edited November 4, 2013 by NineLine

[whitehot]

CIWS, you try to volley the ASM to overwhelm the defences. Unless something has been broken in one of the recent updates, I havnt tried ASM for a while.

 

naah. CIWS wouldnt even open up 9 times out of 10. The missiles hit correctly at the waterline, but it seems they don't explode - they just raise a column of water. Besides we are talking abt a Grisha, no Aegis cruisers or similar

 

 

 

For the Kh-22 doing more damage, it does seem to have a significantly larger warhead than the other 2 you listed. That said, I think that there is issues that have been reported with Anti Ship Missiles and the amount of damage they do, I think ship systems are fairly simplistic at the moment, and therefore the damage modelling for the ships is probably not the best.

 

apparently all the other missiles don't do any damage. I would expect a single hit from a harpoon or a KH-31A to literally snap a Grisha FFL in two - or to sink the ship somehow

[Grimes]

They do damage, just not as much as you are expecting.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1900198#post1900198

[NineLine]

apparently all the other missiles don't do any damage. I would expect a single hit from a harpoon or a KH-31A to literally snap a Grisha FFL in two - or to sink the ship somehow

 

 

I dont agree with that, these ships were built with survivability in mind, I would imagine a well place couple shots could render the ship dead in the water and even sink it, but one missile snapping it in half? I am not sure about that.... The KH-31A only has a little over 200lb warhead, I am not sure one of those could snap a ship made for combat in half... The Harpoon is double that, but again, I dont think one missile would be enough...

[whitehot]

I dont agree with that, these ships were built with survivability in mind, I would imagine a well place couple shots could render the ship dead in the water and even sink it, but one missile snapping it in half? I am not sure about that.... The KH-31A only has a little over 200lb warhead, I am not sure one of those could snap a ship made for combat in half... The Harpoon is double that, but again, I dont think one missile would be enough...

 

 

Ok, we don't have many examples of usage of ASMs in real combat. We do know for sure however, that the destroyer HMS Sheffield (around 4200 tons displacement) has been sunk by a single shot from an Exocet missile, which apparently didn't even explode.

The SS Atlantic Conveyor, 14900 tons, sunk after being hit by two Exocets.

 

There is also the case of the israeli Eliat in 1967, which was abt 1710 tons but sunk after being struck by three SS-N-2 Styx missiles.

 

The american frigate USS Stark survived a hit from an Exocet in 1987, but was badly damaged and rendered inoperational.

 

All in all, only looking at the said examples, i find it hard to believe that a Grisha class, displacing 980 tons could survive a single hit even from the lightest ASMs like the Penguin, lest alone take multiple hits and keep steaming on like nothing happened, as I tested in the simulator.

I also looked at the tables provided by grimes and noticed that the above ship class is absent so maybe a bug related only to that object? I'll try with other ships and missiles.

[TZeer]

Example and reference:

 

Norwegian defense contractor, Kongsberg, has a new ship-killing missile that can deliver a 275-pound high explosive warhead from more than 100 miles away.

 

 

[NineLine]

There is no doubt that some revamping needs to be done, but all around, I would image ships are just one big object right now, and you cant kill systems and such... so it makes the missile damage look less impressive. It would be better if you snuck a missile though and immobilized the ship, or damaged other systems, but right now I think its just a matter of this ship has x amount of hit points and this missile has a chance of doing x amount of damage.... I say again though, I think naval ops are going to get a look in the future... least by the hints dropped with the Naval wishlist thread...

 

Ok, we don't have many examples of usage of ASMs in real combat. We do know for sure however, that the destroyer HMS Sheffield (around 4200 tons displacement) has been sunk by a single shot from an Exocet missile, which apparently didn't even explode.

The SS Atlantic Conveyor, 14900 tons, sunk after being hit by two Exocets.

 

There is also the case of the israeli Eliat in 1967, which was abt 1710 tons but sunk after being struck by three SS-N-2 Styx missiles.

 

The american frigate USS Stark survived a hit from an Exocet in 1987, but was badly damaged and rendered inoperational.

 

All in all, only looking at the said examples, i find it hard to believe that a Grisha class, displacing 980 tons could survive a single hit even from the lightest ASMs like the Penguin, lest alone take multiple hits and keep steaming on like nothing happened, as I tested in the simulator.

I also looked at the tables provided by grimes and noticed that the above ship class is absent so maybe a bug related only to that object? I'll try with other ships and missiles.

[Silver_Dragon]

Ok, we don't have many examples of usage of ASMs in real combat. We do know for sure however, that the destroyer HMS Sheffield (around 4200 tons displacement) has been sunk by a single shot from an Exocet missile, which apparently didn't even explode.

The SS Atlantic Conveyor, 14900 tons, sunk after being hit by two Exocets.

 

There is also the case of the israeli Eliat in 1967, which was abt 1710 tons but sunk after being struck by three SS-N-2 Styx missiles.

 

The american frigate USS Stark survived a hit from an Exocet in 1987, but was badly damaged and rendered inoperational.

 

All in all, only looking at the said examples, i find it hard to believe that a Grisha class, displacing 980 tons could survive a single hit even from the lightest ASMs like the Penguin, lest alone take multiple hits and keep steaming on like nothing happened, as I tested in the simulator.

I also looked at the tables provided by grimes and noticed that the above ship class is absent so maybe a bug related only to that object? I'll try with other ships and missiles.

 

Only some remarks:

SS Atlantic Conveyor was stuck by two Exocet missiles. The presence of ammunition and aviation fuel plus de missile fuel start a fire with turn on uncontrollable. That devastate them, but not sunk them. She was towing to England, and sunk three days after hit.

 

HMS Sheffield not sunk by the Exocet missile, the warhead failed to explode, but the missile fuel start a fire with turn on a conflagration (make uncontrollable and make fire-main ruptured and put the pumps out of actions). The captain order abandon ship and them burned out 2 days. When the inoperative HMS Sheffield was Towed to England for repairs, bad weather make them capzided and sank 6 days after the attack.

 

The USS Stark arrived at Bahrain the following day to the attack by your power and receive temporal repairs to travel to Mayport Naval Station, Florida to Full repairs.

 

You missed the INS Hanit Stuck by a C-802, make battle damage but maintain propulsion and systems capability.

 

DCS: World need in the future (far far I think), a compressible Advanced Ship Model (ASM) with make some type of battle damage (fire, flooding, dangerous cargo, ammunition / fuel explosions / disable systems, damage control teams, armour, etc) over ships and submarines and Advanced Antiship Missiles Flight Model and capabilities to improve the naval envirotment.

 

How DCS: World use the typical Life-bar to all objects. I put a "similar" example using a Harpoon 4 scenery situation example.

 

Grisha I class vs AGM-119 Penguin (assume a hit)

Damage points (life bar):

Grisha I: 32 DP (850 ton displacement Standard)

AGM-119: 24 DP (120 kg warhead)

 

24 DP (Heavy damage / Velocity reduced to 16 Knots)

Critical Hits:

3x Critical Hits (1x3 extrapolate damage ratio):

2x Sensor (Don 2 radar / MGK-345 Bronza [Rat Tail] sonar inoperative)

1x Rudder (Max velocity reduced to 1/3 original (32 Kts to 10 Knts), reduced turn rate.

Optional:

1x automatic fire if missile warhead has 50kg or more or missile has 75% range or bellow. In that case, penguin warhead make a automatic five. A minor fire damage the ship 2% rate of original ship DP (1 DP each 30 minutes). A damage control team can be reduce them or the fire can be up or down in severity).

[theHUNTERS]

All the ASM have had the pop up effect since LOCK-ON version 1. The new wrinkle is now when you hit a ship, you no longer hear the explosion. It makes just a splashing sound like you missed all together. This too will be fixed one day. DCS has come a long way since LOCK ON.

[VFA41_Lion]

This must be broken in the recent patches because ships can get damaged by ASMs and sink.

[Jona33]

This must be broken in the recent patches because ships can get damaged by ASMs and sink.

 

They do still get damaged but when the missiles hit you see a puff of water rather than an explosion. It's still doing the ship damage though and they sink the same as ever.

[VFA41_Lion]

Oh, OP indicated the missiles weren't doing any damage. IIRC they've always made a big ole splash rather than an explosion.

[FlightControl]

Let me confirm that as the designer of the Anapa airbase mission, i use a lot of (US) ships that are approaching the airbase and need to be shot down by Su-34 anti ship attack planes, carrying anti ship missiles.

 

The missiles are completely ineffective against the ships, fe the Vinson. I need at least 3 waves of 2 Su-34 planes each carrying 6 KH-31P/A anti ship missiles, which are ripple fired, to sink the Vinson. When they hit, there is no effective visual effect, which is fine, but i would expect that after 12 direct hits (1 wave of 2 su-34 planes firing each 6 missiles), the Vinson would sink in real life ???

 

For the other naval ships (the frigates etc, thus the smaller ones), it does make a difference how the ship is oriented. When the ship is crosswise the approaching missile (thus the ship flanks the missile), the missile hit will be with a big splash in the sea, and ... no damage at all ... However, when the ships orientation is the same as the direction of the approach missile, the damage will be sure...

 

There seems to be still a lot wrong with anti ship missiles...

 

Note...

Tested this now in Version 1.2.6 and version 1.2.7 open beta. Both versions have these problems with ship missiles. Funny though that the change log of the 1.2.7 mentions anti ship missiles should be improved. They aren't...

I can send a track file if you want to diagnose something...

 

Sven

[sobek]

Please create a bug report in the appropriate forum section for 1.2.7 (with track).

[FlightControl]

ok! i'll do. can you post me the link to the correct forum please?

 

Thanks.

 

Sven

[Silver_Dragon]

here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=311

[Grimes]

The missiles are completely ineffective against the ships, fe the Vinson. I need at least 3 waves of 2 Su-34 planes each carrying 6 KH-31P/A anti ship missiles, which are ripple fired, to sink the Vinson. When they hit, there is no effective visual effect, which is fine, but i would expect that after 12 direct hits (1 wave of 2 su-34 planes firing each 6 missiles), the Vinson would sink in real life ???

 

Note...

Tested this now in Version 1.2.6 and version 1.2.7 open beta. Both versions have these problems with ship missiles. Funny though that the change log of the 1.2.7 mentions anti ship missiles should be improved. They aren't...

I can send a track file if you want to diagnose something...

 

Sven

 

The only anti-ship missile improved in the changelog was the AGM-84E.

 

The Kh-31P is NOT an anti ship missile, it is a anti-radar missile and it doesn't have the same explosive power as the Kh-31A. On average the Kh-31P does 16 damage vs the Kh-31P's 232 damage. Again see this post. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1900198#post1900198 Keep in mind the "alternate" ship HP values have not been implemented into the open beta. With perfect hits it would take 32 Kh-31As to destroy the Carl Vinson (Nimitz).

[FlightControl]

See the issue log attached here.

 

I've created a mission that you can try out. Have fun and observe the fireworks... Let me know if this is normal ... Note that this mission ONLY uses KH-31As.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1951022#post1951022

 

 

Sven

[FlightControl]

See the issue log attached here.

 

I've created a mission that you can try out. Have fun and observe the fireworks... Let me know if this is normal ... Note that this mission ONLY uses KH-31As.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1951022#post1951022

 

 

Sven

 

Learned something today. It takes 32 hits of a KH-31P to kill the vinson...

It seems i need to use the KH-22 instead, which has 21xx damage. I'll try it.

You can close this thread.

 

Sven