The Su-25 and IR missiles

[NineLine]

I think he meant 5 minutes before the aircraft is in range or in sight....

 

5 minutes warning? Unless it takes 5 minutes to turn on a stinger? NO IDEA what it takes to warm up its dohicky. This ACTUALLY is an important bit...is there a warm up time for manpads and there seekers?

 

Otherwise.... 5 minutes? You never been in a real combat zone have you. You best be reacting in like -2 seconds or your DEAD MEAT. 5 minutes.....that's a lot of death down range.

 

In a combat zone you need to go from sleeping to moving in the time it takes to stick your boots on and grab your kit. If you are awake and anything takes you five minutes...heaven help your unit.

 

:D :D :D

 

On the pointy end 5 minutes is a luxury. Maybe it takes fly boys that long I don't know geezzz .:D:D Sorry having a it of fun.

 

But the actual time to go from grabbing a sa7, sa18, red eye, or stinger and shooting stuff.... that is an actual useful piece of info. I had NOT thought of that.

[GGTharos]

The chemical batteries for the Stinger launcher (and javelin, etc...) are one use only. They do last around 3-4 hours a piece, but once you start it, you need to use it or lose it.

 

So by 'ready' it means you're ready to stick the battery in, hoist up the launcher, let the missile do it's BIT, maybe cool the seeker (I forget how long all that takes) etc. Then you need to find the target, IFF, lock, verify lock, uncage, lead and elevate, fire.

 

5 minutes warning? Unless it takes 5 minutes to turn on a stinger? NO IDEA what it takes to warm up its dohicky. This ACTUALLY is an important bit...is there a warm up time for manpads and there seekers?

 

Yes, 5 minutes is plenty of warning. This isn't some sort of twitch game. You see the aircraft coming from 50km away if you have the appropriate early warning radar/dude in the village to call you.

 

Otherwise.... 5 minutes? You never been in a real combat zone have you. You best be reacting in like -2 seconds or your DEAD MEAT. 5 minutes.....that's a lot of death down range.

Again, this isn't some sort of twitch game. The less time you have to react, the worse things are, and fast aircraft take advantage of this, yes. If you have an F-15E doing 600kts and you don't have a radar to see him coming, or some other early warning, you're not likely to get to shoot him in the face. You might get a tail shot, and it all depends on exactly where he's flying, terrain, etc.

 

In a combat zone you need to go from sleeping to moving in the time it takes to stick your boots on and grab your kit. If you are awake and anything takes you five minutes...heaven help your unit.

 

:D :D :D

 

On the pointy end 5 minutes is a luxury. Maybe it takes fly boys that long I don't know geezzz .:D:D Sorry having a it of fun.

 

But the actual time to go from grabbing a sa7, sa18, red eye, or stinger and shooting stuff.... that is an actual useful piece of info. I had NOT thought of that.

[MBot]

But, are you sure the detection model is that simple?

 

Here is a little test mission demonstrating the situation. 10 seconds after mission start, a target will spawn at the maximum detection range of the Stinger units. Observe that the Stingers swing to target within 1 second. The detection within the set detection range is instant.

 

By the way, I invite anyone to observe from the Stinger's position and watch east at mission time 10 seconds (=the best possible early warning you can expect to get). How long do you need to spot the target?

 

 

Oh and one last can of worms that we haven't even opened yet: Imagine what effects target identification and various rules of engagement have on the effectiveness and reaction speed of MANPADS ;)

[Vedexent]

Here is a little test mission demonstrating the situation. 10 seconds after mission start, a target will spawn at the maximum detection range of the Stinger units. Observe that the Stingers swing to target within 1 second. The detection within the set detection range is instant.

 

By the way, I invite anyone to observe from the Stinger's position and watch east at mission time 10 seconds (=the best possible early warning you can expect to get). How long do you need to spot the target?

 

 

Oh and one last can of worms that we haven't even opened yet: Imagine what effects target identification and various rules of engagement have on the effectiveness and reaction speed of MANPADS ;)

 

I'll give it a try when I'm back home again. I'd like to see if there is any effect changing weather conditions around, as well.

 

I'm by no means saying the detection model is perfect, or that under certain circumstances might not be exactly that "super alert". I just know that it seemed their detection was worse in a thunderstorm.

[Vedexent]

Trying to make missions for EVERY aircraft IN mp is not so great IMO. Single player or a realistic coop MP thing might work better.

 

This is s what I'm coming to believe as well: any MP mission that strives to have any decent level of "realism" pretty much needs to be multi-role co-op play.

 

Maybe it would be different if the AI was more reliable, and you could set up a full AI-on-AI military action, where AI units would drop out as player units took over their roles (and presumably re-enter if the player drops out).

 

That kind of relegates open servers with "drop in and play, then drop out" types of missions to not very realistic mission scenarios, or "practice range" scenarios.

 

Not to say those types of scenarios can't be fun; just that they give up realism for playability.

 

High realism scenarios seem limited to per-arranged co-op events.

[NineLine]

By the way, I invite anyone to observe from the Stinger's position and watch east at mission time 10 seconds (=the best possible early warning you can expect to get). How long do you need to spot the target?

 

There is one of the caveats of flight simulations, you have a MANPAD, maybe you have real world specs on its visual range, but perhaps due to the limitations of our computers the user wouldnt be able to match that. SO do you simulate the users limitations or average limitations based on different computer specs, or do you simulate the real world visual range :)

[GGTharos]

Not much with prescribed search technique + binocs ... might even be 1 second if I'm told where to look or the target appears along an expected ingress route. Note that I don't need to search too high: My SAM is altitude limited, anything flying above this limit gets the PATRIOT.

 

By the way, I invite anyone to observe from the Stinger's position and watch east at mission time 10 seconds (=the best possible early warning you can expect to get). How long do you need to spot the target?

 

Depends. If you're an insurgent, none.

If you're not an insurgent but you have an IFF antenna, slightly longer than none.

If you're not an insurgent, have the IFF antenna, and are assigned a no-fly zone, none.

If you're not an insurgent, have the IFF antenna, and are guarding a friendly trafficked zone, you're bound to cause an accident unless you're actually getting data feed.

 

Oh and one last can of worms that we haven't even opened yet: Imagine what effects target identification and various rules of engagement have on the effectiveness and reaction speed of MANPADS ;)

[GGTharos]

By closer do you mean distance or reaction time? ... because an F-15E hauling rear-end at M0.95 is not something you'll hear long before it goes over your head.

 

But something like an a10 or chopper should get detected closer than say a blaring F15 or su27.

[MBot]

Ok, I actually quickly scripted the attached mission in order to collect some empiric base data for my detection script:

 

 

At each full minute a hovering Mi-8 is placed at a random place round a infantry unit between 500 and 10'000 m distance and 100 and 3000 m alt.

 

After 45 seconds you receive the position data where the unit is.

 

5 seconds before the next full minute you may or may not get an early warning position for the next target.

 

Anyone that would like to help me collecting some data, please do the following: Place your view with the infantry guy and measure how many seconds you need to visually detect the target (any zoom level is allowed to simulating binoculars). For some targets you will know where to look before spawn, for some you have to search 360°. After each 45 seconds write down the range and alt of the last target, whether you had early warning or not, and how long it took you to detect it. Repeat a couple dozen times and report your data. With enough base data, I can tune the base probability of detection depending on distance and alt for my script.

Edited November 12, 2013 by MBot
Made a better mission

[MBot]

If you're not an insurgent but you have an IFF antenna, slightly longer than none.

If you're not an insurgent, have the IFF antenna, and are assigned a no-fly zone, none.

If you're not an insurgent, have the IFF antenna, and are guarding a friendly trafficked zone, you're bound to cause an accident unless you're actually getting data feed.

 

Like I said, with certain ROE in effect it could be slightly longer than 'slightly longer than none' :)

 

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by MBot

[VapoR]

This reaction time discussion regarding MANPADS is excellent, I hope it leads to some adjustments to the actual sim.

 

What about other IR threats though, such as Avengers and Chaparrals? I have no idea how sighting works IRL with these since they don't have radars. Are they having to scan the area manually with and IR sensor of some sort?

[GGTharos]

Avengers seem to have an IR camera, but they also might have a datalink feed.

[MBot]

Chaparrals are basicaly the same as MANPADS, but they have more eyes in the sky. According to a manual from the 70s I read, when set up to fire only the guner remains in the vehicle. The commander and one crewman are outside with a TAADS receiver to get data from (one specific) early warning radar and to search for targets visually. The remaining two crewman can set up an additional opservation post.

[esb77]

Ah, yes IFF.

 

ROE and how you use it makes a big difference there.

 

Russian Army and Ossetians know that IFF is for whimps. That's why they managed to shoot down 3 Russian Air Force Su-25s with Iglas during the 2008 war in Georgia. They obviously won the air defense aspect of the war compared to the Georgians who shot down 0 or 1 Russian Su-25s (depending on what sources you believe).

 

On a slightly more serious note, the MANPADS do have some visual detection modeled at least as far as daylight goes. If you're in a 25T at night and have the LLTV pod on you can sometimes get as close as 500 m without getting a reaction (it helps if you turn off nav lights and don't drop illumination bombs). Not sure if the nav lights really have an effect it just seemed prudent to turn them off, but I do know that the illumination bombs and illumination rockets do.

 

I haven't tested clouds yet, put it doesn't really matter all that much because it they can't see to hit their target you're not going to be able to see to hit your target either.

[MBot]

Anyone interested, the discussion on detection can be continued here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116726

[Vedexent]

Not part of the detection discussion, but relating back to the OP, it also appears that the automated ptogram for dispensing of flares is woefully inadequate.

 

Timing flare until the missile is close, and then popping off a rapid cluster of 3-5 seems to be much more effective.

[Vedexent]

Something else we've been playing with - although it's dangerous and shouldn't actually work on an intelligent crew: run an Avenger dry.

 

Taunt it on the edge of its range, make it fire at us, evade, repeat.

 

When it's fired all 8, zoom in and kill it.

 

Clearly a human gunnery crew wouldn't likely fall for this.

 

It's much more dangerous than the two plane "you bait it and find it; I'll kill it with a Karen" approach, but a single plane can do this ... or get blown up trying.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Vedexent

[muamshai]

during an attack run, preferably diving, reduce your throttle to decrease your heat signature and start popping/pooping flares. That should give you a bit more chance of survival, assuming there's no radar guided SAM keeping an eye on you.

[Vedexent]

during an attack run, preferably diving, reduce your throttle to decrease your heat signature and start popping/pooping flares. That should give you a bit more chance of survival, assuming there's no radar guided SAM keeping an eye on you.

 

Distilling all the advice I've gotten, both on and off the thread, that's now pretty much what I do for air-to-ground rocket attacks: high altitude, high angle attack dives, back on the throttle - sometimes even popping speed brakes to keep the airframe from starting to shudder while I'm lining up the targeting reticule and awaiting the "launch authorization" LED to light up - periodic scans for white SAM plumes, then fire, pull in brakes, slam the throttle to max, pull up and 45degrees away from where I think the SAM threat is, popping flares in tight groups of three.

 

If spot a launch, it's hard dive (brakes in, throttle up), popping flare triplets, roll so the SAM is on my beam, wait for the rocket plume to go out, then pull up perpendicular to the path of the SAM, high throttle, and stand her on her tail, flaring all the time ... and pray. Seems to work well.

 

I've also started to have some success with the aforementioned tactic of running an Avenger out of missiles and them clobbering them; started taking a pair of Kh-25Mls along with the S-8KOM pod loadout for stand off attacks on Avengers/Chaparrals.

 

I don't know how long it takes vehicle based AAD units to resupply.

 

Radar guided SAMs, I should at least get a lock/launch warning.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Vedexent

[number3]

You may want to play around with saving your kinetic energy from a dive, egress, stay low and pop countermeasures.

 

The manpad engagement zone is pretty good, so the speed you carry well help with flying out of the zone. This may work best in areas where there isn't an opportunity to terrain mask you plane.

 

The SU-25 flares dispense upwards, so they may be more effective, in that situation, to deploy them while staying low.

 

Another trick I've seen people do is to invert their plane during a climb and dispense flares.

 

:pilotfly:

[Eldur]

Not part of the detection discussion, but relating back to the OP, it also appears that the automated ptogram for dispensing of flares is woefully inadequate.

 

Timing flare until the missile is close, and then popping off a rapid cluster of 3-5 seems to be much more effective.

 

Right... I could make a track that shows how to engange short range air defense in the Su-25. Basically I do what is done in this video:

Just go in aggressively - my difference is the timing of popping out flares, so I need just a bunch of them. Most important about the whole thing is to know what's there and where it is. Anything you haven't expected is more likely to get a good shot at you - especially MANPADs.

 

Something else we've been playing with - although it's dangerous and shouldn't actually work on an intelligent crew: run an Avenger dry.

 

Taunt it on the edge of its range, make it fire at us, evade, repeat.

 

When it's fired all 8, zoom in and kill it.

 

Clearly a human gunnery crew wouldn't likely fall for this.

 

It's much more dangerous than the two plane "you bait it and find it; I'll kill it with a Karen" approach, but a single plane can do this ... or get blown up trying.

 

I'm doing this ever since... just keep yourself above 1.5Gs and never ever have the AAA directly below or above you (from cockpit point of view). Those guns just measure 2 points and calculate the lead - as soon as you're turning, they're not goint to hit. Don't know if this is realistic for a Gundish (radar controlled), but at least a gunner on the Avenger could try to take lead considering the turn of his target.

My other tactic: Attack directly with either very short cannon bursts or rocket salvos. Dive not too steep, idle throttle, keep the pipper stabilized on him and wait till his muzzle starts flashing - immedieately fire your weapon of choice and break left 60+° roll, roll right till he's to your right hand side (not above or below) and keep some 1.5-2Gs. If he's not down, he won't hit.

 

It's even possible to run SAMs dry with enough patience and fuel (which is the reason I rarely do this if there are other options) :D

 

BTW I found the Su-25 flares firing upwards directy above the engines to be very effective, but this depends on the situation. Popping them out will generate quite a heat source just above your plane when seen from the front. The first ones start falling while the last ones are still going up - from the SAM's point of view they're overlapping each other for some seconds and this seems to distract the missiles quite well. Doesn't work in the A-10C at all, haven't tried with others. And it doesn't help to load all flares because the extra flares are launched downwards from the wingtips, alternating (wingtips / fuselage) every press of the flare trigger.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Eldur

[Vedexent]

You may want to play around with saving your kinetic energy from a dive, egress, stay low and pop countermeasures.

 

The manpad engagement zone is pretty good, so the speed you carry well help with flying out of the zone. This may work best in areas where there isn't an opportunity to terrain mask you plane.

 

The SU-25 flares dispense upwards, so they may be more effective, in that situation, to deploy them while staying low.

 

Another trick I've seen people do is to invert their plane during a climb and dispense flares.

 

:pilotfly:

 

I agree 100% with the idea of saving speed and/or altitude, I've only been braking to stabilize the targeting reticule during rocket attacks.

 

I can definitely see the advantage of egressing quickly out of the engagement envelope, but I'm wary about getting bracketed against the ground if SAM AAD units open up; hard to drag an IR SAM down and back up when you're 30m off the ground.

 

I'm assuming that people are inverting to get greater seperation between their plane and the flares?

 

Typically, when I'm climbing out of a rocket or gun run, I'm pulling an Immelman - trying to convert that speed back into altitude and folding my course back over my tail, then a quick aileron roll and I'm set for the next run, pointing (roughly) at the target zone - and from an F3 camera view the flares are going quite wide of the flight path.

[Vedexent]

I'm doing this ever since... just keep yourself above 1.5Gs and never ever have the AAA directly below or above you (from cockpit point of view). Those guns just measure 2 points and calculate the lead - as soon as you're turning, they're not goint to hit. Don't know if this is realistic for a Gundish (radar controlled), but at least a gunner on the Avenger could try to take lead considering the turn of his target.

 

My other tactic: Attack directly with either very short cannon bursts or rocket salvos. Dive not too steep, idle throttle, keep the pipper stabilized on him and wait till his muzzle starts flashing - immedieately fire your weapon of choice and break left 60+° roll, roll right till he's to your right hand side (not above or below) and keep some 1.5-2Gs. If he's not down, he won't hit.

 

 

Makes sense, and explains why my current practice with AAA of breaking left 45 and pulling up hard, works - it's kind an odd blend of these two tactics. But it makes more sense to be doing your maneuvering/acceleration in the plane perpendicular to his line of sight like you describe, instead of half-in, half-out like I'm doing currently.

 

I'm curious why you say "Dive not too steep", though - unless it's a speed/stability issue. I've been doing high, sharp dives to stay as high as possible, as long as possible, and to fire from above.

 

I'm finding that long shallow dives take me within range of all sorts of ground units, and bleed off the speed.

[Vedexent]

It seems to be - although I haven't tested it extensively. The Su-25T has a rear facing IR becon to confuse IR missiles.

 

I've heard people claim that diving on an IR AAD unit from the direction of the Sun also helps as the IR missiles can lock on the Sun.

[Darkwolf]

I'm convinced it do.

 

 

Since a year, i converted several of my friends to DCS and FC. Sometimes, we play some furball, Falcon4 style : Several aircrafts (and even Huey) spawning in a 10km max circle, and fighting each other with IR and canon.

 

 

I always tried to outmanoeuver missiles to avoid them, but since i started training them, i tested to cut down engine to idle and drop a few flare when i get shot at with IR.

 

I noticed a clear difference between avoiding IR with postcombustion and without. Without straight testing, that's hard to document, but since i'm doing my new technic, i'm getting less and less shot down so i'm convinced that's the case.

 

 

Now the question is :

 

Does this apply to Su25 ? (i suppose, as missile logic is not specifically linked to any a/c)

Does this is calculated with (Post combustion on or off) or (the exhaust temperature) ?

 

 

 

I never tested the sun.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Darkwolf