Quick question on landing speed

[JayPee]

For a normal landing, do you want to fly at the required IAS for landing at the 10nm out or do you want to gradually reduce your speed from let's say 250kts at 10nm out to let's say 130kts at touchdown?

[Hamblue]

Depends on how long you want to take to land.

About 5-7 miles out I'm 300kts plus. Drop throttle, and full brakes.

At 190 full flaps and gear.

Is it how they do it IRL? I'm sure it's not but time to ground is much less.

[lobo]

For a normal landing, do you want to fly at the required IAS for landing at the 10nm out or do you want to gradually reduce your speed from let's say 250kts at 10nm out to let's say 130kts at touchdown?

 

 

INITIAL - APPROACH 250 - 300 KIAS

 

DOWNWIND - MAINTAIN 150 KIAS MINIMUM BEFORE ESTABLISHING LANDING Configuration

 

BASE - SPEED BRAKES 40%. LANDING GEAR DOWN. FLAPS AS REQUIRED.

 

FINAL TURN - MAINTAIN ON SPEED AOA INDICATION -- BUT NO SLOWER THAN COMPUTED AIRSPEED (135/145 KIAS; FLAPS DN/UP).

 

FINAL APPROACH - MAINTAIN ON SPEED AOA INDICATION -- BUT NO SLOWER THAN COMPUTED AIRSPEED (120/130 KIAS; FLAPS DN / UP).

 

From the A-10a flight manual.

 

(sorry about the caps)

[JayPee]

Ok thanks. Was talking about a straight in.

[Crescendo]

For a straight in visual approach you can keep it pretty simple.

 

Fly the aircraft to a position such that you'll be roughly on the glide-slope of the runway. For example, a starting point of 10 nmi out and 3000 ft AGL will achieve this (or 5 nmi and 1500 ft AGL etc). From there you'll be able to roughly place the TVV on the runway threshold at -3deg pitch.

 

Then all you have to do is fly the correct AOA using the 'donut'. Ideally you want a solid blue 'donut' (no carets) to be perfectly 'on speed', but in practice it's better/safer to be a little fast (slightly low AOA, i.e. the 'donut' and the yellow 'increase AOA' caret (^) are simultaneously lit). This is because when you flare it increases your AOA, and if you flare badly you could potentially increase your AOA so much that you stall or land heavily. However, if you fly slightly fast and do it correctly, your flare will increase your AOA at just the right moment and you'll touch down perfectly 'on speed' (green 'donut').

 

You can start your straight in approach at any speed you want, but you'll have to slow down at some point to safely lower your gear. From that point onwards, you simply do what you need to do to maintain TVV -3deg on the runway threshold and a green 'donut' with yellow "^" caret.

 

It seems complicated, but if you practice it becomes second nature. I don't even really look at my airspeed anymore.

 

(By the way, the above might not be strictly correct procedure, but it works.)

Edited January 4, 2014 by Crescendo

[Flamin_Squirrel]

[JayPee]

Basically putting the FPM on -2,5 and keeping it on the treshold always gets you home. Even in low light level or at night as eventually you will always see the rwy lights.

 

I just want to improve my procedures a bit when I have the spare time to practice.

[JayPee]

For a straight in visual approach you can keep it pretty simple.

 

Fly the aircraft to a position such that you'll be roughly on the glide-slope of the runway. For example, a starting point of 10 nmi out and 3000 ft AGL will achieve this (or 5 nmi and 1500 ft AGL etc). From there you'll be able to roughly place the TVV on the runway threshold at -3deg pitch.

 

Then all you have to do is fly the correct AOA using the 'donut'. Ideally you want a solid blue 'donut' (no carets) to be perfectly 'on speed', but in practice it's better/safer to be a little fast (slightly low AOA, i.e. the 'donut' and the yellow 'increase AOA' caret (^) are simultaneously lit). This is because when you flare it increases your AOA, and if you flare badly you could potentially increase your AOA so much that you stall or land heavily. However, if you fly slightly fast and do it correctly, your flare will increase your AOA at just the right moment and you'll touch down perfectly 'on speed' (green 'donut').

 

You can start your straight in approach at any speed you want, but you'll have to slow down at some point to safely lower your gear. From that point onwards, you simply do what you need to do to maintain TVV -3deg on the runway threshold and a green 'donut' with yellow "^" caret.

 

It seems complicated, but if you practice it becomes second nature. I don't even really look at my airspeed anymore.

 

(By the way, the above might not be strictly correct procedure, but it works.)

Does the donut account for weight and drag?

 

E.g. when I'm coming in heavy, will having the donut only lit fly me at a higher speed than when coming in light?

 

EDIT: Wait.. Yes, ofcourse it will. As the donut indicates the AOA and the AOA is dependent on weight/speed.

Edited January 5, 2014 by JayPee

[Jona33]

Does the donut account for weight and drag?

 

E.g. when I'm coming in heavy, will having the donut only lit fly me at a higher speed than when coming in light?

 

Yes, you can test it yourself but loading up a plane with full fuel and weapons and then flying a plane with no weapons and low fuel. Flying the donut should give you different speeds.

 

EDIT: Sniped by your edit. :(

[JayPee]

EDIT: Sniped by your edit. :(

;)

 

Practice time.:joystick:

[HugePanic]

Yes, you can test it yourself but loading up a plane with full fuel and weapons and then flying a plane with no weapons and low fuel. Flying the donut should give you different speeds.

 

EDIT: Sniped by your edit. :(

 

just do a longer approach with a heavy aircraft. Than check the speed and jettison all you can... check the speed....

[Crescendo]

;)

 

Practice time.:joystick:

 

It sounds like you understand everything just fine.

 

Just remember: TVV -3deg on the runway threshold, then do whatever you need to do to get the 'donut'. If you can, you should definitely get into the safe habit of flying slightly fast ('donut' plus the '^' caret) and using the flare to get 'on speed' at right at touchdown.

 

Also, it's recommended to use ~40% speed-brakes as well, the reason being in the event of a go-around you can retract them quick which immediately works towards decreasing your AOA (a very good thing). It's easy, you just set the speed-brakes and forget them. The only thing that matters is your AOA.

[JayPee]

Quick question on landing speed

 

What I've been struggling with so far is that pitch should be constant while the throttle is to move the FPM when it's either short or long of the treshold. This principle in itself isn't a problem but anticipating the lag between throttle movement and FPM movement is.

 

When I do it by the book -keeping pitch constant- I find myself chasing the FPM back and forth.

[Crescendo]

As I said, from the way you described "chasing the FPM", I think you know what you need to look for.

 

From this point onwards you just need to develop the 'feel' for how pitch and throttle affect AOA. I think everyone struggles with overcompensation/oscillation to begin with.

 

For me, I found the trick was to get the picture roughly 'dialed-in' and then only make small adjustments. As you found, there is a noticable lag between making the adjustment and seeing the effect, so if you don't wait long enough to see what happens or your adjustment is too large, you end up chasing your tail.

 

Small adjustment, wait for effect. Small adjustment, wait for effect.

 

With practice you'll just feel it.

[Guest Izoul123]

I remember watching a documentary on the military channel a few months ago where they said some of the military aircraft will use a very quick turn and drop/max air-braking/flaps with a short run in distance to land vs a typical long circuit/ normal glide in pattern out in some wartime areas to minimize chances of insurgent fire from near the airbase/airport being used in wartime situations. I believe this was Afghanistan currently where they explained it being used with military cargo planes.

 

Basically sounded like they'd be at higher than normal altitude, do a sharp turn in/dive/air-brake/flaps etc to land ASAP to minimize the chances of insurgent fire on a long/predictable slower glide path vs turn/dive/land from very very close approach distances.

 

I'll see if I can find more information on it, as I'm not sure of the exact terminology/if this would apply to an A10 as well, but I'd assume it could under certain circumstances as well, but you'd for sure have to practice landing this way as it's a bit different than a cosy 5-10 mile glide in lol. Anyone know more/heard of this?

Edited January 7, 2014 by Izoul123

[Crescendo]

Sure, that landing maneuver is called an Overhead Break. User 'lobo' described it in the third post.

 

An overhead break allows an aircraft to approach a runway at high speed, at which point it slows down quickly with a series of turns and then lands. Once you understand the geometry, you can see how it's very useful for allowing individual aircraft to fly faster for longer, and for recovering entire flights quickly. In a lot of ways an overhead is actually easier than a straight-in approach, and often more convenient.

 

You can see an F-15 two-ship performing an overhead here:

 

And here's an A-10 four-ship recovering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEfL7BgEwiY

Edited January 7, 2014 by Crescendo

[MTFDarkEagle]

Be very carefull when doing a power-approach (i.e. pitch for speed and power for vertical speed). While this principle works if you have no failures/all engines working properly, if you suddenly end up with an engine failure (or engines!), it gets difficult when you only know the above method. Just something for you to keep in mind ;)

(I can explain in more detail if you want :) )

Edited January 7, 2014 by MTFDarkEagle

[WildBillKelsoe]

For a normal landing, do you want to fly at the required IAS for landing at the 10nm out or do you want to gradually reduce your speed from let's say 250kts at 10nm out to let's say 130kts at touchdown?

 

not your mandate. the goal is to keep the TVV (datum) on the runway with the donut in green. that is your goal.

After a push, I usually end up with racks that I dispose off (jettison) and fuel 2000 both tanks (1000 lbs each), so my landing speed is usually 100-120 kts indicated. Regardless, I follow the donut with initial position on HUD and gears down. Touching down 110-115 kts, no air braking (tail strike) and speedbrakes fully open 100 kts down to 70 kts then braking and engaging NWS under 70 kts... I always end up at the runway threshold ready to turn without screeching tires or toppling turns.

[JayPee]

Quick question on landing speed

 

MTF, please do so.

 

WBK, what do you mean you jettison your racks? I assume under normal operating procedures you don't just dump empty TERs/LAUs for the sake of coming in light?

Edited January 7, 2014 by JayPee

[WildBillKelsoe]

MTF, please do so.

 

WBK, what do you mean you jettison your racks? I assume under normal operating procedures you don't just dump empty TERs/LAUs for the sake of coming in light?

 

I am just saying what I do. I don't work with normal ops.. I like to come in light. If I'm heavy, and somebody I can't see on the far end of the runway, specially in MP, I like to be able to touch and go without worrying about extra drag coefficients... I was just throwing my SOP to the OP... That doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just saying.

[MTFDarkEagle]

MTF, please do so.

See below ;)

 

WBK, what do you mean you jettison your racks? I assume under normal operating procedures you don't just dump empty TERs/LAUs for the sake of coming in light?

He means purely for practice purposes (seeing what the difference is).

 

Right:

 

Obviously power and pitch are used in conjunction. Having said that, pitch is mainly for vertical speed and power for speed. In prop planes this balance is well in the other direction in some cases, as the prop airflow can create additional lift (you definitely do NOT want to cut throttle on the flare in a B-17 for example.).

For jet powered aircraft this is not the case (unless you'd have a wing behind the jet exhaust :P ).

 

Example time (airliner, but also applies to our jet, but less exagerated): imagine you arriving at your minimums in an approach to land and you need to do a go-around (for whatever reason). The idea is that you cut your vertical speed immediately. If you *just* increase power (power for vertical speed method), you'll slam yourself into the runway. Obviously, you need to pitch up (i.e. pitch movement!).

 

When you pitch up in a jet, the first thing that happens is that the aircraft starts to climb, and thus loses airspeed.

 

When power is decreased (while keeping the same pitch, no pitch control input and disregarding any pitch-power effect which is very aircraft specific) the aircraft will first lose airspeed, will tend to nose down a bit. The only way then to keep the speed is to pitch down, this increasing the descent.

 

Not sure if I've explained myself properly, hope it helps though :P

[WildBillKelsoe]

I find it logical.

[Guest Izoul123]

Sure, that landing maneuver is called an Overhead Break. User 'lobo' described it in the third post.

 

An overhead break allows an aircraft to approach a runway at high speed, at which point it slows down quickly with a series of turns and then lands. Once you understand the geometry, you can see how it's very useful for allowing individual aircraft to fly faster for longer, and for recovering entire flights quickly. In a lot of ways an overhead is actually easier than a straight-in approach, and often more convenient.

 

You can see an F-15 two-ship performing an overhead here:

 

And here's an A-10 four-ship recovering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEfL7BgEwiY

 

Thanks, but from my understanding this was ''more" aggressive than this as defined in the documentary.

[BitMaster]

Usually this helps:

 

Take-off --> Land --> Take off --> land --> take off --> land... do this at least 50 times

 

then do the same from 10.000ft, quit your engine and glide home with a decent touchdown.

 

Just knowing HOW things work will never get you the feeling, only practise does and it will answer all your question by presenting yourself with your own failures or shortcomings.

 

Turning and banking hard is also got to have mastered, especially in a dead stick approach with no 2nd try. You should know and practice how to bleed of airspeed with aerodynamic maneuvers.

Once you got it mastered, a turning landing will be next step on successful landing, that is what I prefer cause I don't like long approaches. Neither in a sim nor for any of my R/C birds.

 

Training training training.. and you will eventually get the feeling.

 

Landing in all conditions is the most important thing to master in flying, anything else is secondary.

 

 

 

Bit

Edited January 15, 2014 by BitMaster

[PFunk1606688187]

Usually this helps:

 

Take-off --> Land --> Take off --> land --> take off --> land... do this at least 50 times

 

Real world commercial pilots need to do this frequently actually, though I think usually its supposed to be in a simulator these days, and they do a minimum of 5 or something in a row when they do these check rides to qualify or re-qualify for their ratings or something.

 

In fact, you can see a perfect example here:

 

 

Civil aviation can teach you so much.

Edited January 15, 2014 by P*Funk