F-15C combat questions

[Pajeezy]

Just got into one of my first fights on a multiplayer server. Went out armed with AIM-7s. Found a bogey (Su-27) and let loose with 3 different Sparrows, none hit. I can understand that, but what I don't understand is that my radar kept constantly losing the target and I had to reacquire him. Is there a reason for this happening? Also, once those failed, we got down into the mountains, but I simply couldn't see him and he got me.

 

What tactics do you use to stay on a bandit when it gets too close? Keep turning around and searching? Keep the radar on and scan? Or just don't lose sight of them in the first place?

[Exorcet]

Good enemy players will fly perpendicular to you (or nearly so) in an attempt to be filtered off your radar in the doppler notch. This is probably why you lost lock. When tracking a plane in the notch, set your PRF (pulse repetition frequency) to MED as it will track them better.

 

The ensuing mountain fight might be handled different depending on who you're flying with. It sounds like you were going solo. In that case, I would try to avoid the mountain and extend, then reengage at distance or just keep running (since you might be chased while extending).

 

If you do follow the bandit in, remember that the Russian planes have IRST which allows them to find you without giving themselves away. The F-15 only has radar, the pilot's eyes, and if you want try it, AIM-9M seeker.

 

If I was in the situation you were on, I'd keep my speed up and pay close attention to the terrain. Look for an area where you can duck for cover if you're spotter first. Usually I try to predict where the other fighter went (unless I saw them all the way down) and either attempt to find them or get away.

 

You can also try to climb and hope that when you do, no one is looking. If the bandit it too occupied in trying to find you, he might stay in the mountains for a good while.

[Pajeezy]

Thanks for the excellent reply. I'll try and remember this next time I get into that situation. I do have a question though. What exactly is the "notch"?

[GeorgeLKMT]

This could be helpful:

;) Ralfi wrote a novel in there on BVR.

[golfsierra2]

Radar uses the Doppler Effect to find targets amongst all the background noise. This is a frequency shift in the radar signal received. If you are approaching an opponent or flying away from him, there will be a notable Doppler Effect in the radar signal reflected and returning from your aircraft.

 

But there is a noise filter in every radar. If the Doppler is too low (speed difference between you and the opponent to low), the radar will loose lock on your aircraft. That is "the notch".

 

The ideal way of staying long "in the notch" is to fly a circle around your opponent with almost no speed difference to him. You become almost invisible to his radar.

[golfsierra2]

The F-15 only has radar, the pilot's eyes, and if you want try it, AIM-9M seeker.

 

Yes, beware of Flankers and Fulcrums with their EOS. They like chasing poor F-15Cs, sneaking in behind them and call "Booh" with an R-73 ...

 

And why do they do so ? Because they can !

Edited January 14, 2014 by golfsierra2

[GGTharos]

Some horrible comments in there too ... like BVR not being science.

 

I guess it's not a science when you don't want to approach it that way and want to tell yourself that it's art or luck.

 

What it really is, and what all BFM is, is scientific murder.

 

This could be helpful:

;) Ralfi wrote a novel in there on BVR.

[NineLine]

Some horrible comments in there too ... like BVR not being science.

 

I guess it's not a science when you don't want to approach it that way and want to tell yourself that it's art or luck.

 

What it really is, and what all BFM is, is scientific murder.

 

It's all we got till your book comes out ;)

[Frostie]

This could be helpful:

;) Ralfi wrote a novel in there on BVR.

 

Actually a lot of crap is written there especially about EDs AIM-120s sucking and Russian pilots having it easy. The thing these guys don't understand is that on FC online they are flying in an airquake scenario where pilots practice daily to avoid missiles and exploit the weaknesses, such as flying extremely low, using hills and ground clutter to trash missiles. DCS has a far more complex terrain structure than BMS which greatly benefits low flying. In BMS when you're engaged with bandits they are more often than not AI and flying in open terrain at suicidal altitudes. DCS online is all human opponents and they come in flavours that no AI could come close to.

 

Granted all missiles are still WIP and there is still work to do but if a bandit flies at 20k ft towards you at 20nm launch range he is going have to be clever to survive and that is the problem a lot of guys anticipate the launch and are already thinking ahead even though TWS means their RWR is telling them very little, all this human element and daily experience makes long range shots hard to complete. But believe me when a bandit gets caught high up with a fast active on him there is little escape.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Frostie

[Eddie]

It's all we got till your book comes out ;)

 

Actually, it isn't, all you have to do is look. :book:

[104th_Maverick]

Great post Frostie!

 

Many if not most people overlook these facts about people flying day in day out practicing their skills and more or less expect results because they positioned themselves into a certain position.

 

As with all things BVR there are loads of variables, the pilot your flying against is one of if not the most significant factor in the missile finding its target or not!

[TAW_Blaze]

Agree with Frostie, if the bandit you're looking at is not extremely close he'll have a decent time window to just drag your missile and it'll never reach him. Closer than that, you often don't want to get, unless you're working together with your wingman, or can approach unnoticed. Anything inside 6nm even at low alt can be pretty tough to beat, so you want to think twice before you go there willingly.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100117&highlight=bvr this thread has some stuff explained it, recommend reading it, multiple times if needed to get a grasp of what's in there.

[IASGATG]

Frostie, if by "have to be clever" you mean casually put the missile on your 2/10 for ten miles and then 3/9 for the last ten whilst gaining/losing altitude then I'd agree. It does require great mental fortitude.

[Frostie]

Frostie, if by "have to be clever" you mean casually put the missile on your 2/10 for ten miles and then 3/9 for the last ten whilst gaining/losing altitude then I'd agree. It does require great mental fortitude.

Hmm sarcasm, I meant predict launches and manipulate the enemies missile, which are quite well rehearsed practices by many online. A bandit nose hot at 20,000ft at 10nm range is an extremely good chance a dead one. One on a 3/9 for 10nm is not a great Pk.

 

Even though its no barometer of missile behaviour the AMRAAM used in Iraq had a Pk of 0.46 against non maneuvering aircraft with no ECM. In DCS the opponents are often much better equipped, have much greater situational awareness and perform well practised maneuvers, all this is unlike anything that was on display during the Iraq war.

 

There is obviously still work to be done on all missiles, but when people miss they can't possibly declare BS there and then when they have little to compare with what just happened other than what they see in other sims against AI.

We've all had missiles miss at seeming perfect kill zones plenty of times, but throw in the aspect/chaff/altitude factor then that is what plays a big part on missile performance. All missiles suffer to some degree this problem it's part of DCS's evolving missile simulation divide between Death Ray and Dead stick.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Frostie

[lunaticfringe]

Even though its no barometer of missile behaviour the AMRAAM used in Iraq had a Pk of 0.46 against non maneuvering aircraft with no ECM.

 

AMRAAM =! Sparrow, and vice versa. The former wasn't available for GW1.

[NineLine]

Actually, it isn't, all you have to do is look. :book:

 

 

I was mostly kidding Eddie ;)

[kk0425]

Frostie I have to disagree with your statement that the AIM-120C had a high pk. last week I was flying at 25,000 feet at I launched 3 AIM-120Cs spaced about 5 seconds apart at a bandit head on aspect at 15NM away. all 3 missed and I got smacked by his R-27ER. he was well into lethal range and even if I lost my lock they should have been tracking on their own at that point. There are a lot others that would say AMRAAMs are currently not performing well. I have been learning to fly the su-27 as well and I have to say the r-27er and et are performing much better than the AIM-120Cs.

Edited February 8, 2014 by kk0425

[IASGATG]

'cept for the bit where C-5 doesn't really care about chaff and has the ability to pull harder and tighter than any other MRM's due to its size. But yes, I understand what you're saying. Apart from the 10nmi shot on the 9-line, mostly because it'll travel that 10nmi in about 8s and will hit that intercept line at about M3.5 But I mean yeah.. apart from those things I agree.

 

I don't mean to be sarcastic. There is a shit ton of mistakes that people make all the time that gets them wrecked because they don't understand what is going on and why what is happening is happening. A lot of the problems/frustrations in BVR is tracking more than anything else. Missiles losing lock for no reason. The ability do to do a beamed split-S and half way through the invert the ER loses lock is frustrating. The ability for the AMRAAM to fly straight and level at a target and fly completely over the top of it because it never acquired lock is frustrating. Changing the flight characteristics of the missile to make them fit in line is relatively easy and straight forward. Make the AMRAAM loft like it's supposed to and making SAR's pursue like they're supposed to is a lot more tricky (from a third-party point of view, not from a maths point of view.)

Edited February 8, 2014 by IASGATG

[Frostie]

Apart from the 10nmi shot on the 9-line, mostly because it'll travel that 10nmi in about 8s and will hit that intercept line at about M3.5 But I mean yeah.. apart from those things I agree.

Against a beaming target it is more like 15-25 seconds, it takes about 8 seconds to reach max speed plus it has to travel close to 15nm because of the intercept trajectory where it will bleed energy.

[IASGATG]

I was being flippant, quick maths:

 

10nmi shot at 500kts target.

 

Missile can do 10nmi in ~ 18s

 

Target has moved approx 2.5nmi

 

Pythag comes into play a = 10, b = 2.5, c ~ 10.3

 

So the missile makes the intercept in about 18-20s still travelling M2.75+

[AFAlinebacker42]

I think that saying the terrain is more complex in DCS than in BMS is just stupid. Have you looked at the map for DCS? The BMS we fly is all red flag - player on player, just like in DCS. If we're talking tactics, the hills serve the same purpose in both games. But I dont think were talking tactics, I think were talking missile capabilities...

 

DCS has the missile physics wrong at this point. 20k, 10nm shot gives 18 seconds to intercept. The missile (AMRAAM) will come off the rail and accelerate to Mach 2.75+ and the Pk will be high.

 

When will DCS improve the tracking physics for radar guided and IR missiles?

[Frostie]

I was being flippant, quick maths:

 

10nmi shot at 500kts target.

 

Missile can do 10nmi in ~ 18s

 

Target has moved approx 2.5nmi

 

Pythag comes into play a = 10, b = 2.5, c ~ 10.3

 

So the missile makes the intercept in about 18-20s still travelling M2.75+

Against a non maneuvering beaming fighter target @ 20,000ft that is travelling at 500 knots the missile flies off the rail at mach 1, accelerates to mach 3.3 in approx. 8 seconds, then after 23 seconds impacts at mach 1.8. If the target had made hard defensive maneuvers the final speed would have been less.

 

Bearing in mind this aircraft beamed all the way and made no evasive maneuvers or dropped countermeasures the Pk seems to be 100%. Missiles are still work in progress since the AFM update.

 

Compare that with an AMRAAM using AFM launched @30,000ft, off the rails at mach 1, accelerates to mach 3.6 then after 20 seconds it impacts travelling at mach 2.5.

 

One critical element when firing is the steering cue, not having the dot centred can make your missile pull hard after launch so reducing energy.

[IASGATG]

Sorry, just so we're clear, are we talking about in game or the actual C-5?

[GGTharos]

Compare that with an AMRAAM using AFM launched @30,000ft, off the rails at mach 1, accelerates to mach 3.6

 

Should be 4+

 

One critical element when firing is the steering cue, not having the dot centred can make your missile pull hard after launch so reducing energy.

Should not really be happening.

 

 

PS: I didn't mean to be short with the answers, I'm just in a hurry. The point is that the game isn't capable of representing reality right now - yes, the missile AFM is getting closer, but it's not there yet. IN addition, that's simply not enough. There are huge differences in guidance between those missiles, and they make all the difference in performance. HUGE difference.

Edited February 9, 2014 by GGTharos

[Frostie]

The AMRAAM currently reaches mach 4 when launched from 40,000ft, it has lost speed since a few patches ago when it was reaching mach 6 but it still missed the same back then. The notch is really effective in DCS.