303_Kermit

Yes... It's very surprising that IAI test pilot liked home made plane better. Statistics are not supporting that. Nor is the poor performance of Mirage III. The plane has worst thrust to weight ratio of all time ( I am not kidding here, check yourself. It's very hard to find a plane with worse T/W ratio). The only superior parameter of Mirage III were their excellent pilots. Plane simply lacked proper engine. Check me out. IIIC is the lightest version of MIII but IAF/DF used the heavier one, and Nesher - yes you guessed right - was even heavier. The statement is not supported by any declassified mission reports we're know of. And any opinions shall be of secondary importance to dry facts. During attrition Mirages killed more MiG's - 124, but IAF/DF lost 19 of them. And that all considering easier tasks - not involving such great risk as the one taken by Phantoms. In the end Mirage (according to IAF/DF data) archived K/D ratio of 6,5, and Phantom 17:1 - numbers varied heavily (Wiki says that during war of Attrition Phantoms took down 116,5 MiGs, the book I just finished to read gives a number of ~85 MiG's). During Yom Kippur it was even worse, since lack of proper RWR equipment made Mirages fragile for Egyptian combined Fighter - SAM ambush tactics. Most pilot opinions are very sentimental and they are very interesting, but they're only that - opinions. Facts are facts. Numbers changes heavily if we compare Egyptian /Syrian data with Israelis, but the main picture stays. Mirages started to suffer significant losses. On the 3-rd day of Yom Kippur war Mirages and Skyhawks were forbidden to cross Suez Canal. Only Phantom survived clash against SA-2/3/6 and MiG-21MF, and proved being capable to perform strike (and perform extremely dangerous SEAD and DEAD) missions till the end of war. In most critical time only Phantoms could intercept MiGs over their own territory, in hostile environment of SAM sites ,and win for a short period "Domination in the air". At the end of the war of attrition Suez canal over the length of 50 miles was covered by 120 SAM sites (only the Egypt ones. I roughly quote after a book mentioned couple posts above, similar number gives declassified USMC analysis of Yom Kippur war). In 1973 Appearance of Phantom over Israel, marked the end of II gen fighters. MiG-19 almost totally extinct (even according to Egyptian data) and Mirages (never a proper multirole fighter) went to secondary role. In 1976 IAF/DF become F-15A and they pushed Phantom into Fighter - Bomber, and F-15A took a role of "Air superiority" fighter. They also marked an end to aerial dogfight as we knew since 1916. That is also were fighter pilot bible ends. Sad but true With my best regards Green Ugly Fellow

Nonsense! I hear sometimes such opinions, but there's no confirmations about it in any sources. Mirage III played a secondary fighter role ever since Phantom came into service. I am during a lecture of a book written by David Nicolle, and Tom Cooper. Phantom seem to be far more superior to anything what Kheil HaAvir had before. Especially in war of attrition when Mirage III and Nesher losts started to built up. Egipt become new russian fighters - MiG-21MF and (never used during that period) MiG-25. Together with new R-13M missiles. All of it together, made Mirage a bit "out of time" since he possessed no flare dispenser, useless radar, and insufficient thrust to weight ratio (compared to MiG-21 MF). Phantoms were tasked not just with A2G strikes as you want to see them - that role they took only after Israel become their F-15A/B and later on also F-16. Before that, during war of attrition, and Yom Kippur Phantoms were tasked with most difficult tasks. Deep strikes inside enemy territory, ands usually Phantoms performing such task were escorted by... Other Phantoms. If Phantom would be purely A2G plane he would never score a kill ratio of ~85 aerial victories vs 5 lost. Phantom was a greatest threat and biggest problem of Egypt, and Syria. It was also one of the reasons, why Egypt after a war of attrition and Yom Kippur... Broke cooperation with CCCP, signed a peace treaty with Israel. Because all that allowed Egyptian pilots to came to Miramar California to TOP GUN to... learn how to pilot a Phantom (they become excellent notes from their US Instructors). And that is also why, Egypt right after that bought Phantoms Before somebody argue - Mirage was still commonly used fighter, and played significant role, but "Elite" IDF/AF squadrons were equipped with F-4E Phantom. And yes, they were tasked with most risky tasks, but Mirage played secondary role in them. One more thing: you wrote: The reason was not to force Phantom pilots focus on their secondary A2G role - as you want to see them. The true reason was a new ambush tactics used by EAF during war of attrition. Most IDF/AF lost in them were... Mirages. They lacked situation awareness of Phantoms.

That is the number of kills made by F-4E only. Peter Davies writes, that during Vietnam War F-4 killed 17 MiG-17 at a cost of one F-4 lost to them. In the case of MiG-21 VPAF claim 74 F-4 downed. Estimated 197 MiGs (all types) were shot down during the Vietnam War, with 150.5 claimed by Phantoms. Anyway... I don't think that you understood the point. And IMO the point is, that people want to recreate Aerial combats over North Vietnam since MiG-21bis came to DCS. It was in the end, the last great Air Battle in history. Every conflict later was affected, by new doctrine of aerial warfare. Those doctrine was successfully tested during 6 Day war. There was no more classical struggle for domination in the air, but sudden total destruction of enemy air forces. Development of modern doctrine of Aerial warfare culminates IMO during Yom -Kippur War. Where SAM's reduced the mobility of Air units of both sides, and where battlefield shrinked to a small space outer range of heavy SAM sites. Aerial combat since then goes slowly but steadily into second plan. No more long intensive Air battles. Just the series of rapid interceptions, Head on clashes, with Full aspect missiles playing a main role. That is why, the "senior part of community" want Vietnam. Because they know and love Air Dogfight. ACM, BFM, Tactics, Doctrines, and they sleep with a Fighter Pilot Bible under the pillow... With my best regards Green Ugly Fellow

JG1 huge group, 2 Squadrons, USA and Europe. I strongly recommend them. Main (but not only) plane MiG-21bis, DDR Luftwaffe.

True... Just for your info - there are at least 5 such topics... Some of them even started with originally some other subject, but in the end it's the same conclusion.

Phantom Started his career in Kheil HaAvir in war of Attrition I believe. Mainly as Fighter. A Ground Attack role was covered those times mainly (but not only) by A-4 and survived Mystere's

I'm ordering a custom panel with multi selectors and weapon switches anyway. Weapon, Navi, Radar probably.... There's too much of it for warthog+2x MFD

Great Job Guys! I can finally feed my OCD. PS... Where is the Spoke?

As for Vietnam - sure, MiG-17 was main workhorse of VPAF, but saying, that MiG-21 wasn't significant there, it's a huge misunderstanding. VPAF lost 63 MiG-17 and 60 MiG-21. As for aerial victories: in a list of top 16 VPAF pilots one can find 13 x MiG-21 and 4 x MiG-17. Both MiG-17 and MiG-21 were active in North Vietnamese air operations. MiG-21s were often assigned to intercept high-flying U.S. aircraft, while MiG-17s were used for a variety of roles, including ground attack and interception. The MiG-21's higher speed and altitude capabilities allowed it to cover more airspace and engage in more sorties compared to the MiG-17. MiG-21s might have been prioritized for specific missions, such as intercepting high-value U.S. targets, means, that F-4 could met rather MiG-21 in the air. Peter Davies writes, that during Vietnam War F-4 killed 17 MiG-17 at a cost of one F-4 lost to them. In the case of MiG-21 VPAF claim 74 F-4 downed. Estimated 197 MiGs (all types) were shot down during the Vietnam War, with 150.5 claimed by Phantoms. I wouldn't say that MiG-17 fought more. F-4E and MiG-21 bis came into service roughly at the same time. The difference was, that F-4E was used everywhere from Sinai and Persian Gulf till the Gulf of Tonkin, and MiG-21 bis not. MF/PF/FL was a proper workhorse against Phantom.

I am aware of that. With a little imagination we may try to play some "Vietnam-ish" scenarios. However It would be nice to have some asset. For example - Chaparral we have it's late version. (Desert Storm?) Smokeless, bigger range, full aspect. Nothing near to Chaparral from Vietnam - based on AiM-9D Sidewinder. Also E-121 Warning Star. Also... Maybe not very popular and not important in Vietnam, but still a missing in DCS Mi-2

Yes, that is the most common opinion, and it's wrong. However heavier, "bis" poses thrust to weight ratio of ~1 (below 13200ft, and about Ma1) far better than any plane of '60 era. Second -it has maneuver flaps -self retractable from it's T-O position. Bigger wingload and weight comes from bigger amount of internal fuel and better internal cannon (the one on F-13 has only 45 shells). If you consider that, even PF with extra gunpod (not present in Vietnam anyway) would be heavier than bis. -It's able to reach 1 G more (8,5-7,5G vs 6,5-7,5G) than F-13 and PF, also has more internal fuel, which is very important. -actually PF possessed better thrust to weight ratio than F-13 There is no more maneuverable MiG-21 as bis. lower weight won't compensate 3 300 KG thrust less of F-13. TRT of F-13 is worse than TRT of Bis. bis has slightly bigger turn radius, but it's far less than F-4E anyway.

I hope for F-4D tbh. I dream about GDB besides SUU-16 and SUU-23 would be fun

Exactly. DCS F-4E will have more advantage over F-6 (MiG-19S), but MiG-21bis is clearly far superior compared to F-13, PF, FL, and even MF.

The truth is that from Vietnam Era we have in DCS ... nothing. F-4B/C/D F-105 F-100 F-104 A-1 A-4 B (one VA)/C/E/F A-7 A-5 A-6 E-121 MiG-21 F-13/PF/FL/MF MiG-19S (F-6) MiG-17F so... we have to use a bit imagination anyway...

I hope that you're right, and I'm wrong. I be glad to. DCS Needs MiG-21... Every F-4 fan needs it as proper well made module. It's best duell of all times (hoewer it was a duel against MiG-21 MF/PF/PFM/F-13 and F-4). bis fought against F-15, F-16, and F-14A. Afghanistan , Iran Iraq war, 1991 Desert storm, Balkan War.

It's not assumption. It's a quote.

and SAU, and ARU, and Radar, and fantasy Weapon setup, and aiming sight sci-fi functions, and RSBN which currently is FC3 alike, and engine shutting down because of overspeed (it's totally made up, there are materials about it. MiG-21 shall lose stability not engine, by overspeed), and elevator not working on high speed and high altitudes.... wishful thinking. Navigation and radar need completely new algorithm. It must be first implemented to F-8, then if it works - you will find it in (new) MiG-21. Other way makes no sense. Nobody will implement new algorithm into old module. It would make no sense. They said a lot about it, and it's on YT. A complete interview was made about ... 1,5 year ago ...? I think.

Are there any chances for it to come? ED?

That all after F-4U Corsair and F-8 Crusader. Taking current speed of work into account it's expected in about 16 years. (assuming that F-8 isn't much complicated than F-4U)

Actually if we compare T/W ratio of various MiG-21, the best of course is bis, but... If we're interested in flying bit higher than 4000m ( 13 200ft) then the best T/W ratio poses PF /PFM. bis actually saw quite a little combat. Most conflicts of '65-'73 (Vietnam, 6 day war, war of attrition, India -Pakistan) - used F-13, PF,PFM, FL (in huge numbers) and my personal favourite MF. Bis was actually more a plane of '80. His conflict is Afghanistan. When he showed up in Middle east Israel had F-15 already (december 1976 is a start of receiving F-15A/B). It's actually a beginning of the end of "MiG-21 era". Clash against 4th Gen US fighters ended up very badly for a little delta. Sooo... no. bis is not the "Standard contemporary" to F-4E. for that we need MF (mainly), or PFM, SMT, FL...

I know it's not F-4, but it's sooo pretty. I have these wallpaper at work and at home:

tbh, There's a training video available on YT about F-4J and AiM-7, shoot from various aspects. There are given F-Pole ranges and Detection ranges. It's not most impressive. F-5E-3 From DCS has amazing radar. Over Syria I was able to detect 2x Mi-24 flying at 10ft from 18 000ft altitude, and 12nm.

Most fighters Is very limited during flight with the tanks. Even more limitations are from that reason by dropping tanks. And actually... It is exactly Rocket - Science it's called these way not without a reason. Anything what points in front of a wing changes Shockwave geometry of F-104's supersonic airfoil. Affects stability. "Shockwave physics" is non intuitive and requires understanding of fluid mechanics and thermodynamics, to start explaining something. To "Figure out " something one requires to redesign wing. F-104S wasn't quality choice - it was economy choice. Phantom was simply much better, but F-104 provided workplaces for italian industry. for start I'll suggest these movie: source of information: "Lockheed F-104 Starfighter: A History" by Martin W. Bowman My best regards.

really?? F-104S were delivered from 1969 to 1973 and were equipped with AiM-7E, AiM-9B/F missiles. NASARR R-21G/H monopulse, non doppler radar. 29nm range for target size TU-95. For something MiG-21 like it's about 6nm. It's rival is F-4E, MiG-21bis, MiG-23, MiG-17, Su-7, Mirage 3/5 There were many problems: In 4 missiles configuration it was a risk of hitting own carrier by AiM-7 since missile nose pointed outside leading edge of a wing. (they create a "own" shockwave placed before the wing shockwave, so it affects also stability) Launching AiM-7 were performed only in subsonic flights. Acceleration of F-104 suffers also in these configuration considerably. F-104S-ASA were delivered in early 1990. FIAR R21G/M1 radar, Pulse doppler Radar, RWR, modern navigation avionics, chaff-flare dispensers, APSIDE Missiles, AiM-9L, and M61 Vulcan refitted back since avionics shrinked back. (source: http://www.karo-aviation.nl/favorite/pages/f104/f104ami.htm) Its rival would be F-15E/C, F-14A, F-16C, MiG-29A/S/G, Su-27, Mirage 2000C. Most modern variant S-ASA-M has very sad career story. I quote after:(http://www.karo-aviation.nl/favorite/pages/f104/f104ami.htm) "Initial flight of the F-104S ASA-M was in 1995, with initial deliveries in 1997. These machines served in an operational role in 1999 during OPERATION ALLIED FORCE, the NATO air campaign against Serbia. The Starfighters were used for combat air patrols, being occasionally directed by airborne warning and control aircraft to check out presumably non-hostile bogeys. Even the ASA-M project was unable to made the Starfighter to soldier on until the arrival of the Eurofighter. During the wars in the ex-Yugoslavia the ASA-M showed all its age and was unable to fly along others NATO fighters. It was relegated to air base protection and deemed unsuitable even for that mission." other sources: https://it.wikibooks.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeritalia_F-104S_Starfighter Sooo... witch one actually do you meant? For me its better to have F-104C - as a rival for MiG-19P. Don't you think? It's (early)Gen II fighter, and all Gen III updates seem to ... fail. Sadly With my best regards. Kermit