TobiasA

A fight with heaters usually does not come to a merge, and in a pure gun fight you can go up... As soon as you set rules in a sport, it will benefit one and be bad for others. A turn fight with heaters doesn't suit the Viper because it is best if it has room and energy. It will never excel in a slow and tight fight on high AOAs. Not against the hornet. On the usual discord channels, people complain about the Viper being too strong in BVR. Just because I can go mach 1.4 with bags which is the rated limit of those. It absolutely dominates the hornet in that field. You either play e-sports or adopt to your environment. That are two completely different things.

This. Those two missing features are a pure pain. This bothers me every single flights since I can't make raygun or buddyspike calls, making flight communications in coordinated AA operations nearly impossible, especially if you have no AWACS with its magic datalink. It is no problem for lone wolfes, for us it's a pain and I wait on this even more than on the FM rework. And the MARK points on SOI would be an adequate solution for the time until we get an AG radar. Since this creates in fact STPTs, this would make it possible to exchange target positions between flights. Bullseye to radar cursor is like a half-a-day-to-develop-feature yet it would bring soooo much. Like... We would possibly fly the viper in complex missions.

There was some NASA data wind channel test going on... I believe there are sources. Not publically available, but also not classified afaik.

There isn't that much that you can clearly always outrate in an F-16, it has only a slight edge over other fighters. Like it is very close with the MiG 29, Flanker, F-14, 15, 18. All those are near 20 degrees per second sustained turn rate. Just saying, some of you will probably be disappointed with how much will change after the FM rework.

I believe that TacView knows two points in a track and then constructs the flight path from it. There is no other way to do it without constructing files of several Mb per each object. If we would have a higher AOA due to a bad lift coefficient, then we would see a higher drag and higher energy loss, thus having a worse sustained turn rate especially on altitude. Which we do see in certain areas below Mach 0.5 and is known and waiting for a fix. Pretty sure the AOA readout is off.

The clouds are really nice. Better than I expected.

As a Viggen guy... Why land on a boat if you can use any road? And can you guys drive backwards? Joke aside, the Viper requires gentle handling when getting her down or up. It is just so we don't spill our coffee on our way to the café in our 5 star restaurant, you know?

What's the sense in opening another thread about what is known to be fixed in a later update? It is also the A model, not the C. We all know that the Viper is slightly underperforming below its corner speed and high AOAs. They know it and will fix it. Like... We have 4 threads about that specific issue with the same stuff in it. Let's just pause it at this point and return to it after the FM rework.

No, it's all cool I was just wondering about how you got a DI of 50. I didn't think of the empty pylon on 5.

But is it "out of the approximate ballpark"? It is not. It is a bit off in some regions, but it is not out of the ballpark. While I am also not that happy with some of that low speed behaviour because it is sometimes a bit bitchy when landing or getting into a turn fight, it is not that far off as "out of the approximate ballpark" suggests. How did you actually reach a DI of 50? It seems impossible to hit without carrying stores exceed either the drag index or the CAT III / G limitations... Basically you can't match it with A-A weapons only. 4 AIM-120B would have a DI of 4 each makes 16 in total, the outer store does not count as a DI according to the HAF manual. Outer pylon launcher is one each, makes a DI of 18 and 4 launchers with a DI of 6 each under the wing add another 24 making it a total of 42. You'd then have to carry one fuel pylon to add 8 to this to match 50, but this would be asymmetric. And a fuel tank would bring you close, but not allow 9G iirc. I might be wrong tho, but it would make more sense to actually compare the performance with a DI of 0 so you don't have to calculate stores which might be off in their drag because stores drag depends on the airframe and even the mounting point and I doubt this is already modelled fully. I might be wrong tho, that drag index question is just a question.

Again, you guys will not see either a real "nerf" as some people want on this or that PvP server because this is a simulation and you will also not see a really harsh increase in sustained turn rates. Because real life data does not indicate such a thing. The FM is not that far off as many of you think it is. It will never outrate everything else, because it is on par with the hornet as well as the Fulcrum in most areas. It will remain well capable of Mach 1.2 at sea level and above Mach 1.8 at altitude, climb to angels 50 and stuff because it can. Clean, but it can. Dear ED Team, one question remains for me... Did you adjust something with the stores on the Viper, like fuel tank weight or something? It actually feels like something has changed on landing so it feels like I can hold up the nose longer on aerobraking.

While I agree with that, for me, there are no alternatives for the viper. None of them is an F-16. I came for that specific plane. At the current point it is at least somewhat usable, although it is far behind from what I expected considering how long it has been in early access. But it is what it is. It is my favorite plane and will probably ever be. The Hornet is more complete, but it ain't no viper. Yeah, it has boat ops and it surely is a nice plane, but... I don't want another EA module right now after the viper. Viggen is an outstanding module, but then again it is an attack aircraft, a sort of plane I can't do very well except fixed targets and anti ship, and this is where the viggen excels. The A-10 is also a nice module for sure, but then interdiction isn't really my thing in fixed wings. AA is, SEAD is, Strike maybe. That is where the viper is right at home. So my personal list is: - F-16 - Viggen (still gotta learn that tho, but it is incredible to fly that thing) - Huey - Ka-50 - Other stuff There is simply nothing that would replace the viper at this point, and did I mention that the hornet's pre-prototype YF-17 literally lost to that of the F-16? There is no such thing as another viper. The Tomcat will fit me, but I want to learn my planes first (especially the Viggen) before. The hornet might, but it is more likely I'll buy the Apache in pre-sale as getting the hornet as it is now... I mean I like the hornet but it's no viper, and I'll probably get it in a few years but for now I don't feel like it because it ain't so fast, it doesn't have a bubble canopy, you land on boats and my head can probably fit only the viper or the hornet. I'm not that type of guy that knows 4 planes halfway, I want to know them. Even if my german squad flies hornet all the way along.

If Heatblur brings another module, I'll be right on track. The one reason I don't have the tomcat right now is that I don't have the time to learn so many modules at once and the tomcat is rather complex. It'll follow one day. If none of you buys EA, then we won't see any nice modules anymore. That's the price I am willing to pay, but I also want to see some progress on the module, since the viper is the module that really brought me to DCS. The one big thing on DCS (for me) is the large playerbase, easy to access multiplayer missions and a ton of cool modules to fly. I got hooked with helicopters, really looking forward for the apache. I will most likely preorder it if the viper sees some progress in terms of AG radar and flight model. Open and honest information is always appreciated. Just give us a rough roadmap, on which we know that things can change. I even don't need a timeframe, but a few informations about the planned features would be cool- what will happen in the next update, what is the plan, reasons for stuff not being in the next update, big features in the making... So we as the people who bought EA know what happens (and that something happens). And it would be cool if there was a video on how they research the flight model. Because... aerodynamics... I'm not saying I like math, but I like physics and stuff. And I like insights in technical stuff. And I bet a lot of the virtual viper drivers do.

That's a pity, but I understand that. Thank you for the explanation, it makes waiting a little bit easier.

I personally would appreciate the FM updates before the addition of new weapons that are forbidden on some multiplayer servers either way. Just my two cents.

According to the patch note, yes... But I could swear it has changed. It holds the nose up longer during landing and is less bitchy on higher AOA's, more stable during landing approach. And then there is this: I don't know. I didn't research that really, I have no hard numbers to compare. Either I'm getting used to it or they changed it. But: The clean viper probably won't change a lot. Try carrying stores. Something changed, because having the nose up at 75kts was something that didn't happen before. But maybe they changed other factors affecting what I feel.

It is not that easy, because thrust curves differ from engine to engine. There is no fixed number, and T/W ratio is from a specific point (the maximum thrust output). The amount of thrust can differ between various engines on the same altitude and speed, the 129 has a slightly higher bypass ratio than the F100-229 and it is a different engine as the 100 used in the blk30. It is not a single number, and also a higher weight will give slightly different induced drag that has more effect on lower speeds (AOA) and other effects (for example to the 50 lowering the nose on 100kts on landing and the 30 at 80 knots). Aerodynamics aren't simple, and you can't say "this is better", "the 30 turns better than the 50". A 50 will outperform the 30 on higher mach numbers or altitudes, while the 30 might have an edge in a turning fight. Because the GE 129 is way better at altitude and speed, while the blk30 is lighter. But: The 30 has no IFF interogator or HMCS, both of those have more impact on the fight as the increased weight. So they decided to bring more stuff into the plane and increase thrust. If you ask about which plane turns better or is faster, then you have to state the exact conditions and the answer will only be true for a certain "point in space" for a certain loadout, a certain speed, pressure altitude, AOA (G), even temperature. There isn't that much of a difference, because the 50 partly compensates the weight with thrust, and the lighter weight of the 30 doesn't mean that much with less thrust. But... - We have a specific variant, the 50 with GE 129 - So we trust in ED to match real life data, which will most likely result in a similar end speed, better lift at higher AOA's (so less induced drag) and a slightly slower acceleration in level flight because probably induced drag is too high and parasite drag too low So I'd say we wait for 2.7 and see if that brings any FM fixes. I hope so, and if it does, it will greatly affect my decision on the apache but that is another thing. Keep in mind that except from clean practice conditions, no dogfight ever is balanced. Usually, the one who decides to enter it dictates his wishes to that fight to give him an edge which ideally should outweight any disadvantages. I have rarely lost a dogfight I willingly entered, but have rarely won a fight I didn't chose. I messed up a fight on buddyspike recently when my AIM-120's failed and ended up in a gunfight with a hornet which I almost failed. Almost. And I sacrificed so much, misjudged to situation, went for kill just to get me almost killed out of a plain advantage. I had to rely on guns, and that bothers me, because I wanted to have that kill, went careless and almost paid for it. Don't rely too much on charts, and minor differences between similar airframes. It is carelessness, pure SA and pure energy management and situation judgement that gets you killed. There is no general road to success, no one-thing-to-rule-them-all. This is especially true for 1 vs 2 or 2 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 or similar situations. The better team wins.

Drag index is extremely important yet not displayed in DCS. It describes the drag of external stores.

Corner speed: 330 to 420kts. I fight the MiG-15 at higher speed because it is not made for those speeds, giving me room to fight them with heaters and drain their energy. Corner speed means the area which gives the best sustained turn rate. Higher, and G limit you, lower and the drag eats your energy.

Alright so then somebody may move it to the wishlist...

Is there an optional overlay for the boom direction lights up / down and forward / aft whenever you are cleared for contact and the AAR door is open? Just like that stick input overlay? They are incredible hard to see in daylight, and almost impossible at night. At least on my system.

Yes. Heard they wanted to include it in a newer pod, but afaik the current HTS does not have that functionality. We don't even have the HTS pod yet in DCS, and it'll probably be more than a year until we do.

Yes, absolutely. In SP, it is far more common. The one thing I can't do is refueling in a pitch black night because I can't even see any indicator lights or stuff. I've done it in "that other sim", but the indicator lights in DCS are just too friggin dark or it's my setup. In multiplayer (especially PvP), you get a different view on dogfights because you have more options, and they are more riskful. I actually do miss the gun a lot in the viggen. It comes in really handy in dogfights because if the fight gets tight, you easily get below rmin even with the 9X- let alone the viggen where you have to point your plane directly towards the enemy without a HMCS and only have older heaters. I do not see the gun as a primary weapon, but one that allows you to get out of trouble. Or blow up that specific truck down there. However, I do not own any naval planes, so skipping the carrier ops is pretty easy

I 100% agree with you, except that I bring my bags back very often. They are rated up to Mach 1.4 on altitude iirc, so as long as I do not encounter some active AAM capable fighters I keep them. It is right to train gun solutions and BFM to be prepared. However, in all my years of flight sims, the number of gun kills I have is about a dozen, almost all of them below Rmin of a 9. If i can, I press pickle. So like one in 50 kills is a gun kill. A safe kill brings you home, a missed opportunity might end in pain. And while I absolutely admire you dogfight pros, the number of dogfights that I have had in a regular mission that consist of more than two full circles is at a similar amount. See first, kill first. See nothing and die. You get attacked, you are defensive because the other guy picked the fight and dictates his conditions to it, giving you the worst cards. If you decide to enter the fight, you dictate how and when it takes place, striving to kill fast and without any room to counter. That is especially true in PvP environments. Turn to kill, not to engage. That leads to dogfights to be heavily in favor of one of the parties- usually in advantage to the one who picked the fight. Our view on dogfights differs a lot. For me, they are an evil thing, to be avoided if possible because they drain fuel, SA, control and time. For you, they are a way of enjoying your game experience. I could probably learn a lot from you about how to win more of my dogfights, but I have collected a lot of experience in avoiding them...

I fly the Viper with two bags like the real thing. There is a reason for it. Right, you can not choose every fight. But if you do not stand a chance, it is better to turn cold and fight another day. If you get jumped by MiG 15 or 19, then something went terribly wrong. Again, you see that we have a member of group one and a member of group two discussing. There are two reasons for me being in a dogfight: I lost SA or I have the upper hand.