9.JG27 DavidRed

^^and this! with this implementation, we do not longer fly aircraft.... we only try to give information with our joystick to the virtual pilots muzzles... in regards of stick input, this teaches totally wrong behaviour and techniques.

^^this :thumbup:

:thumbup:

are you joking pete????are you guys seriously making a me410?

yeah unfortunately that seems "normal"...it happens from time to time.i have no clue why...we would have to ask SNAFU, the creator of the script.maybe he knows.

yeah sure :)

^^good idea!implement the stick forces once they are ready! lol

what i still dont understand though is, why is it then that when close to the center, the virtual stick hardly moves in comparison to your home-stick...the farther you go away from center though, the more the virtual stick becomes "alive" and eventually will make more movement than your home-stick...as if there was a curvature setting now...that doesnt make much sense to me, as the further away from center, the more forces you have to apply as a pilot....if that is the "inaccurate" control you speak about, then i have to say, its probably exactly this effect which just feels unnatural...not so much the limitations themselves....its as we have now a forced curvature setting... please give us something quickly...the combination of having those stick forces on the stick, but lacking on the rudder feels just wrong...

have you read my posts?i think not...

yes. also, why have it not implemented at all on the rudder?on any of the ww2 aircraft?

doesnt seem to depend on the speed of joystick movement though, from my little tests so far... also i havent seen Yo-Yo denying it with the current beta patch...

yeah sure, options are nonsense :doh: also, testing a little further i noticed something like a curvature setting on the pitch...a friend of mine tested as well and sees the same... moving the stick away from center on the pitch axis...first close to the center the virtual stick will hardly move, but the farther away from the center, the more it will catch up with your actual stick movement,up to a point, where the virtual stick will move more than your actual joystick.(of course only to the point where the pilot isnt able to pull anymore force) so we have a curvature setting implemented now as well it seems :huh:

^^you hope right, its not.

regarding the wings...i think we all experience some kind of learning effect.and thats the only reason why the wings break off less often..still, with the p51 it took me a few days, and then my wings never broke off again. thats not the case with the 109.there are still situations, where the wing just decides to break off. i know, that Yo-Yo stated that they have implemented forces a wing can withstand for x seconds until it brakes.and also that it has a "memory" effect, and that when you pull hard, the wing can get damaged without braking and next time it will brake sooner...all nice to have. but there are situations especially when air-spawning in a brand new plane, and then you pull a moderate turn, and all of a sudden you lose a wing.you start the same mission again, do the same or pull even more, and there is no damage at all... it feels inconsistent again, and it seems as if there is a bug deeper in the code.yes there were definitely situations were i pulled 8+ g, and then there were definitely situations were i pulled 4g in a brand new plane and my wing fell off....

also these stick forces are completely left out for the rudder....so at any speed you can still push the rudder completely the full range without a problem.... so what we have now, is a mixed thing... the elevators are affected by the stick forces, and are pretty unresponsive now.(i think its overdone as well...at 300kph a pilot is not able to pull the stick fully back?i doubt that) the ailerons are affected as well...by far not that much though(seems correct considering the lower forces you need for ailerons) the rudder though is not affected...in this combination, it now feels completely wrong(especially as the rudder probably even in a 109 is very likely the one control surface you need the most force to move it at higher speeds). at a 700kph dive i pull the stick fully back, my wings dont break (hey hey, :cheer3nc:) but only because my pilot pulls like 2cm on the stick. wings usually still break long before my pilot notices even the most subtle black out effects. (so in general we can still turn just as tight....whether with the stick forces enabled or not, the one limiting factor are the paper wings anyway.without those stick forces you dont turn tighter out of magic) if i push the rudder, it reacts accordingly to my inputs and without any delay i can push the full range right or left... weird combination. that brings me to the next problem of these so called "realistic" stick forces...now with them implemented, i can pull on my stick at 700kph completely back, and dont have to fear that i brake my wings...i do that at 400kph, and there it goes. really realistc :) all in all, as it is now, i hope the devs reconsider to implement it at all in its current state into the official version, and once tweaked, make it optional.so people can choose whether to fly with "force input" or "position input".

then i will quote yourself again what you said earlier: "in DCS we decided to have controls movement, so control surfaces as they are in reality. That's the point. This way the simulated FM fits the real one regarding required stick movement. Of course we understood that shorter travel of the majority of game controllers will require less travels to get the same result comparing the real aircraft. Nevertheless, this model gives good feeling even if you get the real plane stick after hundreds hours in virtual plane. I had an opportunity to compare the real P-51 to its DCS twin... the feeling was that the real plane behaves exactly the same you use to feel it in DCS regardless of higher forces at the controls. Excessive control forces in any simulation can be done using so called cutting force (any movement of the virtual stick are not available beyond this point) preceding with the zone of low responce agility. So, for example, you can pull the stick up to 70 kg but accurate piloting is not available since the force is higher than, say, 20-30 kg." and i agree with that completely...i cant understand why you now force the exact oposite on us...make it optional and everybody will be happy.

the problem is, you can still pull out even at a 700kph+ dive without a problem in the open beta with the stick forces active... and as you say it, until there are sticks capable of reproducing the real forces, there is no right or wrong....so make it optional, and of course implement restrictions where pilots just cannot produce the force anymore(i.e. high speed dives, thats what i said in the first post) now though, the pilot isnt even able anymore to pull completely back at 300kph. what you get is a very whobbly and inaccurate feeling.(cant describe it better) where you sit in your chair and yank your stick around like mad, to make the plane move a little.

let that be my problem then... yes, as an option to choose!

^^black out effects seem weird...sometimes i start to black out in situations were normally the wings come off and where normally no black out symptoms are visible at all...it seems inconsistent somehow. i would like to have them a little sooner tbh. i remember a bug online with the p51 back then, were the pilot decided to not black out at all anymore, and that was by no means an advantage...

no nothing to do with realism.as i said the way i see it its two different approaches on a problem...now the stick moves, even if you have your joysitck held in a certain position.how is that realistic? before we had "position input" and now we have "force input". until ED produces high quality hydraulic force feeback input controllers shipped with each module only compatible with them, the only correct approach would be to make that optional and not force it onto its customer. i know i am in a minorty and many will love this "i cant stall anymore" effect, but being used to real planes as well, i felt the former approach towards the problem way more intuitive...

the problem is, at 700kph dive, you can still happily pull out of the dive(slower than previous though), but at already 300kph the virtual stick will not move completely back

ok...flying now in the open beta, i realise they have implemented stick forces, and what that means.... simple example...i pull the stick back, and keep it at a certain position at 400kph...while i keep the stick in the same position, the virtual stick moves slowly and continuously more and more back, resulting in a tighter and tighter turn... no way this is more realistic. its just a different approach.and i have to say, i hate it.(i know a strong word) the former approach(stick position=virtual stick position) is way more intuitive for me personally.its what i really appreciated in dcs. now of course, if stick forces would be too high to overcome by a pilot, then this should of course be restricted in game. BUT: please make this "stick forces" thing an optional setting just like the virtual head movement....it got nothing to do with being more or less realistc, but its two different approaches on a problem.... i realise there are probably many people who appreciate those stick forces, but please dont force it on people who do not like that.

410 would be awesome!but question is whether there are enough docs, data available...

Hi Carlo! yes...have a look at this screenshot.

ALSO: since today the open beta was released, we can assume that within the next few days it will go live.so i decided to not yet update the mission, and wait until friday...if by then the open beta still didnt make it into a official patch, i will update the mission anyway... the reason to wait: i noticed that in the open beta version, we now have the possibilty to choose whether we want the flare gun in the 109 or not.... so everybody with a personal 109 on our server will be able to fly either with or without the flare gun...you will have to tell me, and i can change your aircraft in the mission(its only possible to change within the mission itself) so guys, tell me, want to keep the flare gun or not? just say for example: pilotname: 9./JG27 DavidRed flaregun: no ...and it will be changed with the next update.