Warhog

Don't be concerned with questions. If I'm not here others can help. But as Extranajero was saying there is a huge, and I mean fkin huge Taig community to help you as well. Here's your reading assignment for the year. Call me in 3 months after you finished the reading and we'll discuss the assignment:lol:: http://taigownersclub.forumotion.net/ http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php http://www.cambam.info/ http://www.cartertools.com/ http://www.krupin.net/serendipity/index.php?/archives/52-Novice-guide-to-backlash-adjustment.html Just kidding(but maybe I'm not) :music_whistling: Do look at these sites and spend some time readin and checking the links they provide. That will lead you to more great sites. It just goes on and on. And go to Youtube and do a search for Taig CNC mills. That should give you a visual confirmation as to what you can expect from these machines. When it comes to electronics part I would suggest you buy everything from China. The prices are unbelievable. Even if half of it fails your still way ahead. But I don't think I have had more than one smaller board failure in over $1000 worth of purchases this year. Its pretty good stuff.:thumbup: @ Extranajero I'm pretty sure the Peatol guy is still there. He also wrote a book on the Taig lathe and mill. Good beginners stuff. I too have a Taig lathe. Excellent little machine. I did end up buying a 12x18 lathe as I wanted to do some machine work on some of my firearms and then came the full sized mill. I used it to make a prototype kit for converting a Ruger 1022 rifle into a Thompson Machine Gun look a like. That little project made me enough money to pay for my machine shop and all my tooling. Just so you know, I am not a machinist. Its only hobby stuff that I use this equipment for. I really have a very limited background in metal working so I may not be that big of a resource. I just know what worked for me when I built my first cockpit. BTW, I spent in CDN dollars $3000.00 for everything related to my CNC mill back maybe 13 years ago. That was a decent budget and it got me what I need to learn CNC. Good luck with your project. :)

Learning how to draw using a PC is not terribly difficult as you will not be needing to do 3d modelling or anything near that complex. As long as you can export your panel drawing as a .dxf file then your good to go. There are a number of CNC machines available. I have a Taig and as much as I love it, a larger table would be very much preferable. I can't really recommend a machine specifically but I can recommend parts of it. With most CNC mills you need to build part of it yourself anyways. It helps you understand its inner workings that way and you will also need to tune it so it performs optimally. Knowing your machine inside and out is important. The first step is of course research. Read a lot on CNC. there are tons of hobby type web sites especially for Taig (Peatol) to explore and learn from. Cartertools.com is a good starter if you go the Taig route. CNCZone (the forum)will be your next best friend. Join and read. These are the basics. Software: You need the following: 1. Mach 3 CNC Machine Control Software. This is an easy to use, easy to learn, inexpensive, excellent in all respects, piece of software which you need to run the CNC Controller. $175. 2. CamBam - Extremely easy to use. Extremely easy to learn. Excellent for the beginner. This is what you use to convert your drawing into G-code so the machine can cut it out. It also comes with a "built in" set of drawing and editing tools. $150.00 Hardware: 1. Desktop style of Mill (CNC Ready) 2. CNC Machine Controller and cables. This will include the Gecko 540 controller and a 48v PSU. Gecko is the best there is and nothing, and I mean NOTHING else will do. Do not buy a different controller no matter what they try and talk you into buying. It is 100% problem free. 3. Nema 23 280oz stepper motors (these are powerful enough to handle most anything in the size of machine we're talking about). When you order a mill, you have motor size as an option so this is the preferred size. 4. An extra PC to run it. This PC can be an older type PC with XP on it as long as it has a parallel port. The data stream to the mills controller is so intensive only a parallel port can handle the transmission requirements. A laptop is also out of the question. If your wondering why to these comments, its best you read up on CNC and then your questions will be answered as you learn more about it. Then are a number of odds and ends: 1. Cutters, end mills, drill bits etc. 2. Collets to hold the cutter in the spindle (I use ER-16) 3. Digital calipers 4. 100 metres of double sided tape:lol:. That's what I use to hold the engraving plastic flat to the table. I laugh because its so stupid to use tape on a mill and its so damned expensive but its also the perfect choice. There's probably a bunch more stuff (little things) I haven`t listed but they are things you learn about as you explore the world of CNC. Its an all encompassing hobby that's for sure but once you start into it you become absolutely obsessed. Sorry but its the same disease you get from cockpit building.:P One more thing, as a beginner, stay away from Chinese. Don`t even look at their stuff right now. Its too easy to get taken advantage of when your new and don`t know what you need. Hope that helps as a starter.

@Weeb... I maybe should have qualified my statement in that people using the options page to configure switches will run into that problem. If you have the ability to modify individual .lua files then I expect this would not be a concern. I just assume that most new pit builders won't be at a level to make those kind of modifications. I used the options page for my first cockpit build and had those problems. I still do not have the know how to modify .lua files so thank God for Ians software. It eliminates that all together. @Wayne...Thank you for those comments. You are too gracious. I essentially relied on this forum to obtain the know how to make the instruments you saw on my FLICKR site. So I really should be thanking all of the contributors here for their posts. All I bring to the table is my CNC know how and my ability to problem solve which comes from age:( and experience.:music_whistling: The problem solving involved in cockpit building has to be the most rewarding part of this endeavor. However it pales compared to all of the new people I have met and made friends with. :thumbup: The whole CNC thing is not really about ability. Its money. If you can afford a simple CNC rig and the software you need to run it, the rest is almost easy. This is all I use. Its small and its limited in how large the table is. But its dead nuts accurate as all hell and I can cut half a panel, move the piece, re-register and cut the second half with precision down to .0005". So a small table just requires using some creativity when figuring out how I should cut my panels. Take the Tacan panel, for example. It JUST fits. Learning how to draw panels is easy if you use a simple program such as CamBam. And it also makes the g-code you need to cut the piece. After that it's basically a setup thing with Mach 3 which controls the steppers and then hit enter. The point is, as with flying the A10, you had to learn how to fly it. Same with CNC. Its not rocket science (cause I learned it:P). Its just having the motivation (and money of course:music_whistling:). But you already know that pit building is expensive to begin with. One more point to consider is that, take buttons for example, instead of having to purchase them I made them from scratch. That is a big savings as well. How about knobs and switches? Again, easy to make...expensive to buy. That toggle is a normal toggle with a fake top I made for it. So, all things considered, I do end up saving a good chunk of money by being able to make these parts in house. And when you subtract that savings from the cost of the machine it slowly starts to look less expensive over the course of building a complete cockpit. Sorry to ramble on like that. I was directing this to Weeb as much as Wayne so you can both get an appreciation of what you can do and the savings you could realise by having your own CNC setup. Also, its know where near the cost of a good laser cutter and much more versatile. Thanks for listening guys.

Thank you for your comments. I assume you were at my FLICKR or my Photobucket site. This is where I keep my progress photos of my "cockpit to be". Ian was suggesting I start a thread here on ED with my photos. I'm considering it but often I have a hard time keeping up with the comments which also takes from my building time. Have you a drawing program that you will use for your panels and how would you make them? Any access to CNC or Laser cutters? These are probably the most necessary pieces of hardware for cockpit building if you plan to do it all yourself. Virtually every component in my cockpit has been scratch built. I started out building large scale ships in styrene and when I was confident enough I moved on to more complex things such as what you see on my photo sites. Its a huge challenge but also quite rewarding in that you actually get to sit in the cockpit of an A10C or as close as we will ever get. I have a 120" screen and a projector which really helps with the realism. When the new graphics engine comes out it should be unbelievable. I see by your pictures that you pay attention to detail and you also use tools that permit detail. That's a good skill to have for this endeavor. If you get stuck on something don't hesitate to fire off an email and if I can help I certainly will. Spend a lot of time going over the various builds on this forum. It helps immensely as it will show you what to do and what not to do. Its more the "what not to do" that's most important as learning from others mistakes will help your build go much smoother. Good luck with this and don't forget to post pics as you move forward.:)

I've started rebuilding my panels. I was originally using the BB-32 board but it doesn't let you sync your switches. If your panel switch was battery 'on' when you started the sim, switching to battery 'off' caused the the sim to move the in game switch so now my switch was working opposite to the sim. And that happens to all the switches that weren't oriented correctly when I started up. And then there is the situation that you get dropped into a hot start aircraft. Now you can never get your switches properly synced. The reason I mention this is that DCS-BIOS, that was just released, eliminates that situation entirely. It lets you sync switches without causing this switching in opposite directions kind of crap. I am now in the process of switching (no pun intended) :P over to this new system because 1, it eliminates the whole syncing issue and 2. the Arduino boards are so inexpensive and offer way more flexibility. But it was mostly because it was so frustrating not being able to get my switches synced properly in hot start planes. I think you will see what I mean when you start using your panel in game. Making sure Five switches are in the correct position when you start cold is not that much of a hassle but I have over 60 to deal with. It is so important to start with a system that permits this kind of in game resyncing or you will end up doing what I now have to do...replace all your interface boards. I know this from experience as I probably have at least one of every interface board that is popular to use with DCS.

Well I wish you the best of luck Mike. I certainly hope it provides you with the accuracy you will need. From what I have seen of your previous endeavors I have no doubt you should be able to overcome most problems you encounter. Your choice of motor driver and power supply are spot on. The Gecko 540 is an absolutely fabulous piece of equipment. There really isn't anything better for this size of machine. I run one as well. And the 48V power supply is an excellent match for it. I assume the cables are heavily shielded? If you haven't installed the 540 and PSU yet, use a large case(for air flow) and a medium size fan. They both tend to get hot. A small footprint PC case works well. This is mine. Mike, please post your findings once you have it up and running. I would be interested to see how it performs. And for all of you wanting to start into CNC, I highly recommend the following items as a bare minimum for being able to make the kind of parts we see here on the ED forums: This, of course, does not include the actual machine. That one you have to figure out for yourselves. 1. Gecko 540/48V PSU (drives the stepper motors) 2. Nema 23 280oz steppers (these are powerful enough to handle most anything in the size of machine we're all talking about). 3. Mach 3 CNC Machine Control Software. This is an easy to use, easy to learn, inexpensive, excellent in all respects, piece of software which you need to run the CNC Controller (Gecko 540) and consequently the machine itself. $175. 4. CamBam - Extremely easy to use. Extremely easy to learn. Excellent for the beginner. This is what you use to convert your drawing into G-code so the machine can cut it out. It also comes with a "built in" set of drawing and editing tools. I bet most people could get by with just using CamBam to make a drawing of a panel, convert it to G-code and then send it to the controller (Mach 3) to have your machine engrave and cut it out. I use AutoCAD which is at an entirely different level. But on the other hand, making panels is not rocket science so CamBam could probably meet all of your basic needs at the beginning. And BTW its only $149. Finally, CNCZone (the forum) is your friend. Join and read.

MOMUS CNC... I was just at their web site and was reading the specs. I didn't find anything that speaks to the accuracy of the product except "high level of accuracy and precision." What the hell does that mean! Really! Its all relative then and what they think is accurate maybe I would not. Another statement they made "and provides adequate levels of accuracy and precision." Excuse me, but what is adequate? Why can't you give me number as in accurate to .001" or .01" or what. There is a reason they do not say how accurate it is in the specs. Please consider that in the end, the accuracy of the machine is probably THE first and most important question one can ask. If the machine cannot cut a perfect circle or go back to 0,0 within .001" then its not going to be much good. But I should qualify that. It won't be much good for what we want to do. How many of us really need that kind of accuracy anyways? Well... if you don't have that kind of accuracy then forget about cutting PCB's. Also, engraving will look really awful in the smaller font sizes. The list could go on. There are so many machine out there that say "high level of accuracy and precision." And if you are doing 3d wood carving with your machine then it will be great. There are no tolerances that you need to work to. You could even do it free hand and still have something nice. That doesn't work for us. We have to have accuracy for what we do. Please think very hard about what you expect the machine to do for you and then find out if it can. BTW, there is a reason some of those cnc machines are $500.00. I get so angry with these vendors because all they do is turn you off CNC because you get a shit product and end up frustrated and give up. Its suppose to be fun and a great learning experience and it will let you do amazing things. Be careful in your selection. Speak to a machine shop if you are unsure. Most machinists will tell you what you need for accuracy. My machine does .002" but I haven't tuned it up for a long time. It could do .0005" if I was careful. Its a Taig Mill.

With all the research and devopment I have put into my own cockpit and the level of detail and accuracy I tried to maintained, I can only laugh at the price they set for that MIP. They must feel it's worth it. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of effort put forward to create this yet it is wrong on so many levels. I doubt if that much thought was put into it's development. To justify this selling price I would want to see panels that actually mimic a real A10 instead of copies that poorly reflect the original. I would also expect no empty spaces. And I would want to see working gauges where all actually have pointers and displays not left out. BTW, what's with the giant lag bolts:doh: But understand my critism is only with respect to the asking price. I have great respect for all that would attempt such a project. We all have our own level of skills and available tools which affect the final outcome? In this case I guess they figured charging minimum wage for labour just wasn't enough.:lol:

Yes, thank you ED. It was no longer fun flying the A10 with that past change that virtually eliminated the engine sound. And I do like that warning horn sound. The other was a bit grating on the nerves every time it went off.

I have the same thing happening. Once the Mav's are expended they respawn and it shows that there are more yet I can't access them. Not a good situation when you want to practice firing Mav's as now I have to land to get more which takes away from practice time.

Yes that's quite true. Even CamBam has a rudimentary drawing section within the g-code convertor. I don`t use it much unless I need something quick and dirty yet precise. Anything like a PCB or some gears get done in AutoCAD. However, the point I was wanting to make was that getting into CNC can be a bold and quite rewarding adventure but it requires money and learning. Not necessarily in that order but usually a lot of each. It shouldn't be entered into without knowing full well what you will have to learn and the equipment you will need to purchase. Otherwise, I guarantee, you will be either overwhelmed or very disappointed. I don`t know much about lasers but my impression is that they are just like a laser printer (in concept that is). You have a picture you want printed (I mean cut), you pick out the lines you want cut, set how deep the cuts should be and then press enter. Out pops whatever you wanted and its perfect. Of course I have probably oversimplified it but as I say, I know little of lasers except they cost a small fortune for something good. I do wish you luck with your endeavour's. I know just how convenient it is to whip up a panel in a couple of hours right at home in your basement.:)

When I see prices like that it scares me. And I wonder what the motivation is of the seller to be dumping his machine. I have been doing CNC for maybe 10 years now. My costs have been well over $4000.00 for an accurate, reliable, repeatable CNC mill. This is a breakdown of what you would need if you go the CNC route. 1. Software to draw with. You can`t just take a PDF and make it happen. 2. Conversion software. Your drawing needs to be converted into G-code which tells the CNC controller all the info it will need to cut the part. 3. Software to control the CNC device. It makes the stepper motors move in whatever direction and speed that the g-code specifies. This is the least expensive software you would need and some basic hardware. 1. Drawing software...AutoCAD Light $1300.00 2. CamBam (for g-code)...$165.00 3. Mach 3 ( CNC control) ...$175.00 4. Old PC with parallel port...$500.00 (cannot use a laptop) 5. CNC Controller...$475.00 6. Carbide Cutters...$100.00 starter set CNC machines vary so much in price its impossible to do an estimate for you. I recommend you do a lot of research before you jump in. And I mean a lot. There are so many crappy machines out there and most are Chinese. They look really nice and I must say I was even attracted especially with some of the prices. In the end I became very suspicious because most of the products I mentioned above you would still need. So how do they offer ALL of that at those prices. They don`t. That's what the research you are going to do will reveal... all of the extra stuff nobody mentions. Then there is the learning curve. For me it was two years before I could machine a part. For simple engraving it will be nowhere close to that but its still a steep curve. There is a forum you need to join and do a lot of reading there. It will help you put things into perspective and give you an idea of what you should avoid. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/ It comes highly recommended and is the largest CNC forum available. I hope I could provide a bit of insight into CNC. Its not for the timid that's for sure. But once you up and running, you can do things that make life so much easier.

Since we are comparing knobs I thought I would throw mine in for examination:music_whistling:. Notice the smooth silky features. Well defined yet not overpowering. A thing of beauty. Not everyone has a knob like this knob because its mine and only mine. :lol: Calm down everyone. Lets not get hot and sweaty over my knob.:P So this is an example of what my mill and lathe can do (when I have dimensions). All I need to do now is drill and tap the set screw and airbrush a few coats of acrylic "Aircraft Interior Black" OR I could use it as a master and cast a few more without going to the trouble of making another one on the mill.

I'm just starting my Fuel Gauge as well. It looks like you're using the VID series of steppers motors. What are you using to drive them? I picked up 10 of the VID-29 series for some of the analog gauges but I think I will use servos for the fuel gauge. I have the angle of attack and flaps gauge set up with servos and they work quite well so far. I am looking forward to trying out the steppers though. Any plans for a digital display in the fuel gauge? I am looking at a 128x32 OLED as it needs to be 1.25 x .4" to clear the engraving for the backlighting to work. The EMI panel... what does Windows see those gauges as? Is it one USB per gauge or one USB for the entire unit. Your HSI looks very interesting. I am getting close to that time where I will need to figure out what to do about the HSI and ADI. I'm not going to scratch build them. The standard analog gauges in the A10 are as much of a challenge as I can handle. Are you happy with the performance of the HSI/ADI in your pit? Your pit is looking really smart. Very professional I must say. Looking forward to a complete demo once its fully up and running.

Please don't take my comments as critism. Actually I applaud your effort and I would even purchase an ADI and HSI in a second if you had them available...even at $300-$500 a piece. But as I am making all of my cockpit from scratch I have a good appreciation of the time it takes to produce a panel or a gauge. I have also designed, prototyped and manufactured some products in the past for a different hobby so I also have an appreciation of the time and money involved in taking something to market. So maybe I should reword my comment to, i am just sceptical of your cost and price projections. Enthusiasm is one thing but working hours upon hours for free is not very appealing for most people and this is what it will take. However everyone is different. So if this turns your crank...go for it. If you are able to bring some product to market at a reasonable price, I too will be a customer.

I'm making my own because I really don't see this product selling for what was originally cited. There just isn't a market and i do believe that will become evident in the not so distant future. I'm not trying to poo poo this effort but if you think about how many there are building cockpits...well there really arn't that many now, are there.

Thank you both for your input. I understand both points of view here and I think it's important that we have a choice and you have both given us that. That being said, Deadman, could I impose upon you for one piece of information I have been unable to verify. I am looking for the overal height of the ILS and Tacan knobs. I don't need height of each piece that makes up the entire knob assembly, just the height of the assemble knob. That would help a great deal. Thanks so much.:)

Thanks Deadman. I've seen your knobs for sale in the past. I assumed you cast them from original parts. Did you happen to create any actual drawings of them by chance? I have worked exclusively in AutoCAD for 25 years now. If I can get some data on the sizes then I would provide .dwg files or dxf for anyone interested.

Thanks guys. I should be able to get much closer now to fabricating an almost exact replica of the knobs I need.. It doesn't need to be within 1 or 2 millimeters. I'm not that obsessed. (Well maybe a little:music_whistling:)

Thanks for the heads up on that Mike. However, as much as they have a good assortment of knobs, the ones I'm looking for (Tacan, ILS and the comm radios) are not listed. So I'm still looking...

:helpsmilie:I am looking for some accurate dimensions for the panel knobs in the A10C. I have a TACAN and ILS sitting on my desk that I have almost finished except they do not have knobs because I didn't want to guess. I have searched and searched with very little success with exception to that large knob thats used for Fuel Select Panel, TISL, Fuel System Control Panel etc. That knob is even available for purchase at some ridiculous price. I was, however, able to get accurate info on that knob so at least I can reproduce it properly. Its the VHF, UHF, Tacan, ILS etc. that I'm looking for. I can pick off diameters from photos but as to their height I would be guessing. I don't like to guess unless forced as I'm almost always wrong.:music_whistling: I will be machining these from scratch out of acrylic rod and then making molds to be able to fabricate extras easily. I would very much appreciate some assistance. So if there is anyone who can shed some light (or dimensions) on this I would be eternally grateful. IMG_0247 - Copy by JFWall, on Flickr IMG_0268 by JFWall, on Flickr

I have my steppers set back .5" from the faceplate on a separate piece of acrylic. I use two pieces of brass tubing with the inside diameter to match the shafts. Super glue is an excellent way to attach the tubing to the stepper shafts. The pointers weigh nothing so there are no stresses put on this joint. The super glue will not fail. As to the needles/pointers I make a thin brass flange for each shaft and solder the flange to the shaft. Once that's in place you can again super glue the actual pointer to the flange and your ready to go. Although this picture is a slightly different application the technique is the same. You can see the inner and outer shafts but look how the outer shaft is attached to the gear. There is a small flange which has been solder to the tube. Once that's in place you have a nice flat surface to glue the pointer too. Make the flange as large as the pointer will allow and make sure the flange is set perfectly perpendicular to the tube or the needle will look strange when it moves. BTW, if you where wondering what this picture is, its a double shaft volume/frequency build for the right side of the ILS. Outside shaft sets vol through the use of gears to the pot beside it and inside shaft connects directly to the rotary encoder to set frequency. IMG_0267 by JFWall, on Flickr I just received my steppers and driver IC''s as well so I am almost at the same point as you. I hope the soldering for the SMD chip was easy as it looks. I am a little apprehensive to say the least about soldering these 6606 IC to a PCB. In closing, if you do a search on Goggle for DIY flight sim gauges, pick images from the top menu and scroll through all of the pics it finds of the gauges made by other people. There are a lot and it should spark some ideas if your stuck.

Yes, I can agree with that.:( I just started a brand new pit myself. Its the second one in as many years.

I did a quick search on the net but I cannot find anyone selling the driver chip 6606. The company that makes them does not list any suppliers and I don't think they would sell half a dozen of those chips to a lowly little cockpit builder. Do you have a contact that we can buy from ? The stepper motors, however, can be found on eBay.

The letters are blurry because your spindle motor (dremel tool) probably has excessive "runout". In other words you spindle shaft is not running perfectly true in that axis. That causes all sorts of bad things to happen when it comes to getting nice accurate cuts. No one should use a dremel tool for a spindle motor or even a drill press for that matter. First they do not have adequate lateral support so the shaft , not to mention the whole dremel tool gets all these pressures applied to it in directions that it was never designed to handle. Second, they just don't use quality parts or parts with the tolerances required to perform consistently or accurately. There accuracy is really at the level of "hand held". That's what they were designed for so I wouldn't expect to get much better than if you did it by hand. Then there's the whole issue of backlash which also causes many more bad things to happen. What it gets down to is if you want good, consistent quality you have to use good equipment. Unfortunately that means spending a fair chunk of money. There really is no other way around it.:( If funds are at a premium I would get it done commercially. It would be less money but then you would miss out on the adventure of learning to do engraving/cnc.:music_whistling: You know, for a piddley little flight simulator which is basically free and maybe fifty bucks for my A10 you sure can spend a huge (did I say huge?):doh:, I meant HUGE amount of money. :cry: :megalol: