Warhog

It sure is Anton but the real credit must go to Ian. Although I did the hard stuff...I added this part::lol: #include <AccelStepper.h> #include <DcsBios.h> #include <Servo.h> Ian did the rest.:thumbup: This guy is just fantastic. :thumbup: Thank you Ian.

I was going to do a separate post in detail but it is taking a lot longer than I thought. How far into the altimeter are you. Do you have the VID60 and some IR emitters yet? If your in a hurry and just need the code for it, this is what was put together for it. I made a poor attempt at some of it but Ian came to my rescue and wrote all the important stuff which is still mostly over my pay grade. I am learning though and definitely getting better.:thumbup: // include AccelStepper library #include <AccelStepper.h> // include DcsBios library #include <DcsBios.h> #include <Servo.h> // DcsBios-related declarations DcsBios::ProtocolParser parser; #define STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION 240 #define ZERO_OFFSET 0 AccelStepper stepper; // Defaults to AccelStepper::FULL4WIRE (4 pins) on 2, 3, 4, 5 int currentStepperPosition = 0; // current stepper position (in steps, from 0 to STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION-1) signed long lastAccelStepperPosition; void setup() { Serial.begin(250000); pinMode (12,INPUT); // LOW when in zero position, HIGH otherwise // set up stepper motor for zeroing stepper.setMaxSpeed(1000); stepper.setSpeed(500); // run clockwise until we detect the zero position while (digitalRead (12)==1) { stepper.runSpeed(); } // add zero offset stepper.runToNewPosition(stepper.currentPosition() + ZERO_OFFSET); // tell the AccelStepper library that we are at position zero stepper.setCurrentPosition(0); lastAccelStepperPosition = 0; // set stepper acceleration in steps per second per second // (default is zero) stepper.setAcceleration(1000); } void loop() { // handle DcsBios communication while (Serial.available()) { parser.processChar(Serial.read()); } DcsBios::PollingInput::pollInputs(); // move stepper motor stepper.run(); } void onDcsBiosWrite(unsigned int address, unsigned int value) { if (address == 0x107e) { digitalWrite (13,1); unsigned int alt100ftValue = (value & 0xffff) >> 0; // convert data from DCS to a target position expressed as a number of steps int targetPosition = map(alt100ftValue, 0, 65535, 0, STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION-1); // adjust currentStepperPosition to include the distance our stepper motor // was moved since we last updated it int movementSinceLastUpdate = stepper.currentPosition() - lastAccelStepperPosition; currentStepperPosition += movementSinceLastUpdate; lastAccelStepperPosition = stepper.currentPosition(); if (currentStepperPosition < 0) currentStepperPosition += STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION; if (currentStepperPosition > STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION) currentStepperPosition -= STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION; int delta = targetPosition - currentStepperPosition; // if we would move more than 180 degree counterclockwise, move clockwise instead if (delta < -(STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION/2)) delta += STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION; // if we would move more than 180 degree clockwise, move counterclockwise instead if (delta > (STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION/2)) delta -= STEPS_PER_REVOLUTION; // tell AccelStepper to move relative to the current position stepper.move(delta); } } This code was written to assume that the IR photo-transistor is keeping pin 12 high until an opening occurs in the encoder disk inside the motor. When IR light hits the phototransitor (IR reciever) it cuts the voltage to pin 12 and the pin goes low. Thats the zero point. Set up your circuit to do that and your all set.:) We did a quick test with it connected to DCS the day we finished it and it zeroed and it as with the virtual altimeter it continued through 360 degrees without a hiccup. In fact it mirrored the DCS altimeter perfectly. I haven't had a chance to do any more with it than that. BTW, I noticed you have some sketches with your baud rate running at 500,000. You might want to step that down to 250,000 as the former caused issues running that fast. Hope that helps Adrian. Don't forget to post your results. Please use a separate thread when you do so. It will get lost in a mega (pun:smilewink:) thread like this one. As a matter of fact to any other posters, I would suggest we stop using this thread as it's just to large to maintain any semblance of easy to access information.

Yes those are the same ones I use. The IR emitter is something I cannot comment on as I have no idea what to recommend. I just had a couple lying around in my junk box of electronics stuff and tried them. They worked! BTW the IR emitter is placed at the window opening of the stepper motor. Here is a link to what might help. http://startrobotics.blogspot.ca/2013/05/how-to-use-ir-led-and-photodiode-with-arduino.html

Hi Adrian Welcome. I see you have been busy. Very impressive. I look forward to seeing more of your work. Please do not hesitate post lots of pictures, descrpitions and code, etc. Adding to the collective knowledge of this forum is what helps to make this place very special. As Anton pointed out, you will need to use Vid60 stepper motor. It is a continuous rotation stepper motor. Furthermore, it also incorporates an IR receiver and optical encoder disk that is very nicely integrated into the design of the plastic housing of the motor. As much as it already contains an IR reciever, you will still need to provide an IR emitter. If you can wait a couple of days I will post a full description of my altimeter and all of the code for it. If you also plan on modelling some of the engine instruments, compass, HSI and the ADI you should think about stocking up on the VID60. BTW, this is the motor that's used for automobile clocks. It has 2 shafts, one for hour movement and the other for minute movement. Both originate from the same shaft but they geared differently. That is a rather special feature for us as it gives us two quite different rotational speeds which can come in very handy. Keep watch for my post detailing my Altimeter build. It shouldn't be more than a few days from now.:)

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOO nice guys. Really well done. :thumbup:

I spent 30 mins checking with my usual suppliers, KBC, Fastenal, and a couple others here in Canada and nobody carries them in black oxide. I suspect it would be a custom minimum order as Mike was saying except they will probably want a minimum order or 100,000 give or take a hundred.:P I know this is sacrilege, but I started painting my zinc plated Philips screws for some of my panels. Whats worse...I didn't even prime them first.:lol: I think you had to be there....:music_whistling:

Kind of reminds me of the Standby ADI I made.:P But it is a very nice looking unit. Bet the price is not as nice looking though.:music_whistling:

There is only one thing you need to do at this point in your adventure... Read as much of this forum as possible. Look for the guys who have been here for quite a while and are documenting their builds. See what they have done and what materials they use etc. And read the stickies at the beginning of this forum. They talk about software and general panel making. There are so many ways to do what you want to accomplish but much depends on your abilities, your resources, available tools, budget, room size, budget and did I mention budget. I would start with $3000 not including a decent PC or any viewing apparatus. Everything you need to learn is right here on this forum. Years of discussions and problem solving and examples of everything you could need. All you have to do is start reading. Nobody here is going to tell you what to do. That's up to you. What we will do is answer specific questions as you run into difficulties. After a couple of weeks (or months) of reading you will have a much better idea what this is all about and you may just change your mind...or not. And if not then best of luck. Post pictures of your build and when your stuck on something, just ask but always be specific. It's kind of like this ...you walk into a bar, actually the "pilots only lounge" and yell out "so hey guys, how do you fly a plane anyways". Think about the reaction you would get. Need I say more. Start reading my friend. There's lots to learn.

Shawn, I have to say that you are one of the most creative cockpit builders I have had the pleasure of meeting. What you can accomplish without the use of CNC and lasers and fancy materials is absolutely astounding. You maximize what you have at your disposal and if its not in your inventory you figure out solutions to move forward anyways. I hope all new cockpit builders have an opportunity to see what you have accomplished and what you can do with a minimum of tools and materials. You just need the motivation to make it happen regardless of what tools and materials you have. Shawn, you really are an inspiration. :thumbup:

Anton...looks f**cking eh! :thumbup: Really excellent job there my friend. So tell me, How do you like this stacking technique. I find it helps so much with keeping everything nice and clean and easy to trouble shoot. It's also easier to design parts as individual modules rather than one packed little pcb. Thing is, as you have already discovered, making boo-boos on your drawing is something to be avoid. Too many times I've had to add jumpers, cut traces or add a trace because I didn't check thoroughly enough. :doh: I'm starting to think it might be a good idea to print out the drawings on just plain white paper first. Do my stacking and component layout on the printout and use that as a check plot to make sure it's correct before moving further ahead. It so much easier to spot mistakes on a physical layout than on the screen. Looking forward to seeing more of your work.:)

Whats the problem your having with drilling Anton?

I'm planning on using a real HSI and ADI interfaced with DCS-BOIS and Arduino. I already have an HSI from a 737. Ian and I are working on it together to see if we can get it up and running using stepper motors to replace the synchros. The ADI is a lot easier to make functional. See my standby ADI below. My problem is locating one at a reasonable price. That just leaves the RWR which I will export to a small screen.

I agree with Ian about the need to learn HOW to do this stuff. Its one thing to just copy an existing project but then when something goes wrong, you have no idea how to trouble shoot the problem unless you at least understand the basics of what you did. As Ian pointed out, start with the data sheet. Read it and see what you don't need. Whats left is what you will use to build it. The data sheet has all of the basic info you need to understand what to do in terms of schematics and pin connections. You should also go to the Arduino site and explore the MAX7219 Library and the LedControl Library to see what they do. Then search for typical examples and you will find lots of images of PCB's that you can use as a reference. When I have my cockpit finished I intend to publish photos, schematics, PCB layouts, Arduino code and whatever else may be pertinent to my cockpit build. All of my sketches will be in a library for future reference. But that will be months away (Only Months?? :music_whistling:). It would not be a good idea to use my code and circuits as they presently exist only because I need to thoroughly test everything working together to ensure there are no issues before before the data is made available to anyone wishing to use it. Here's a site you will probably want to make use of. They have PCB's for the 7 seg displays. If you can't make PCB's yourself you will want to order some of these boards based on how many digits you need. Scroll to the end of the page to find them. Their prices are generally ridiculous but what can you do? http://www.flightsimparts.eu/Shop_7Segment.html For the MAX7219 you can use this. You will still need to read up on all this stuff or else you may see blue smoke coming from things. At least you will be able to use PCBs for your build which is always desirable. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-NEW-MAX7219-lattice-contol-panel-PCB-printed-circuit-board-for-arduino-Good-/171462457882 These are the 7 seg digits you need. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PCS-1-Digits-0-36-GREEN-7-SEGMENT-LED-DISPLAY-COMMON-CATHODE-Digit-/121369474283?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c422f34eb You still need to get the components which you will find once you go through the data sheet for the 7219. Between Google and eBay, I have found all sorts of invaluable info on building these kinds of things so spend some time doing research and you will be amazed at whats out there for you to use and learn from. In the mean time, read up on this stuff as we suggest and learn about using the MAX7219 and 7 seg displays. We will help you when or if you get stuck on something. This stuff is not as difficult as it may appear. As I said earlier, six months ago all I knew about electronics was ...nothing:cry: and when it came to programming I knew even less. Persevere and you will be surprised at what you will be able to accomplish.

That looks great Anton. Really nice. It will make life so much easier with a PCB for the entire CDU. :thumbup: On the next board you make, try using circles for your solder points. I think you will find it much easier getting a perfect solder joint on the copper than using a square solder point. Its how the solder naturally flows. But in the end I don't expect its that big of a difference.:smilewink:

I have been using the MAX7219 with the 7 seg displays. Its quite easy to use and to program. The IC's can be purchased from China for under a dollar a chip. There are also PCB's ready made to use them with the MAX7219 and 7 seg displays. The display your looking at uses the TM1637 IC to drive them which probably does the same thing as the 7219. The Arduino sketch looks similar as well although I think the 7219 might be easier and more versatile to use in that you can daisy chain them for additional displays. I'm not really familiar with the TM1637. Another consideration is that the display your looking at is only 4 digits so that won't be satisfactory for anything we have in the cockpit ...ILS -5 digits, Tacan 3 digits plus an x/y character display, VHF and UHF 6 digits. And there is the size...its 12 foot??? and its red where everything in the cockpit is green. What I might suggest is you do some investigation into the MAX7219 and prefab PCBs. I understand there are prefab PCB''s for 7 seg displays as well. You can get the correct color, size and number of digits but you need to use individual digits to do it. The code is also readily available and it's much easier to go with what many people are using so you can get help when you need it. Six months ago all of this was unbelievably foreign to me. I had know idea what any of this was or how to do it. With help from people here and a lot of reading on the various threads, forums, and data sheets (really important) I learned how to do this. That's kind of what it takes to build a cockpit that resembles the real thing. And if I can do it...you can, anyone can. This is what all that research and learning has allowed me to accomplish in 6 months and its also an example of what can be done with inexpensive components and the motivation to make it look good. This is my VHF under construction using all of the correct displays, size, color, placement etc. My TACAN: My ILS Don't consider this as complicated. Look at it as a challenge for you to overcome. It's really just a matter of reading and doing research and talking with the rest of us when there is something you can't figure out on your own. You can learn how to do this even if you consider yourself a novice. I was a novice last year. I still am in many ways but I keep learning how to do stuff and then I apply it to this project. Consider how far you've already come. You just need to go a bit further...and then a bit further ...and then a bit further... and you're there!

Very nicely done Peter. It looks fabulous. :thumbup: But the big question is ... will you actually have time to fly it now that the 737 is underway?:music_whistling: :P

Thank you Rocketeer. Yes there are situations like the UFC where ths technique will not work. With the UFC I placed strips of LEDs between the rows of switches wherever there was engraving. I didn't do that with the CDU as there is no engraving on the panel itself. Its all located on the actual buttons and then I use illuminated push buttons. The light box technique works well most of the time but as I said in my previous post some switch layouts will cause dead spots in the light distribution because of their size and/or positioning. In those situations I provide single LEDs, strategically placed, to add "fill light". That's just a matter of experimenting to find the best place for them to add the extra illumination required to counter dead spots. One more thing, I will also be adding a few holes in the light boxes for ventilation as they do tend to get warm. I don't see it as a problem though. I have left a couple of them run continuously for 24 hours and it didn't get "hot" by any means. Later today I'll post a few more pics of this technique. Yourself and several others have inquired about the RS-485 bus that Ian is developing. In anticipation of implementing it I designed this breakout board specifically for the Pro Mini. I'm not going to talk in any detail about this right now as we will be starting a separate thread where detailed user info and installation instructions will be provided once testing has finished. Suffice it to say, this board slips over the header pins of the Pro Mini and the A4 and A5 pins. You would push it all the way down and solder all the pins to the board. There is still sufficient length in the header pins to allow one to insert a USB-Serial converter to program the board. On the Pro Mini you need Tx, Rx and one additional pin ( the A4 or A5) to connect to the bus. There are 2 sets of A-B Pins on each board to facilitate daisy chaining. This little breakout board will really simplify an already simple bus connection. Later on I will also design and make available a breakout board for the Mega as I will be using several in addition to the 30 or 40 Pro Minis I will have installed:music_whistling: @Mike...After reading your post about using resistors to clear up noise, are you sure your not thinking of capacitors? You could try soldering a couple of .01uf ceramic caps between centre and each side pin of a pot to clean up some noise although I haven't actually tried that myself since I replaced all my pots with rotary encoders. But capacitors are used specifically to reduce noise. Resistors on the other hand will just reduce voltage and I don't know how that will make things better.

First off let me say, that is an excellent rendering... very impressive.:thumbup: So I expect doing all the detailed drawing thats needed won't be an issue for you. That is really most of the battle. So many people struggle with getting good drawings before they can even get to the g-code stage. As for the large stuff, I am having it done with an outside contractor. I don't have sufficient working space to cut that size. I anticipated that I would need an outside source for some of the work. I don't expect it will cost very much as I will provide them with a g-code file and all they would need to do is load it, set the material in place and run the file. I also went through the process of deciding whether I would upgrade my equipment as you are doing right now. After looking at everything I need to make, it became apparent that my machine could do 99% of the work. If I had to contract out the rest of the work, it wasn't a large expenditure. As to the fuselage, I won't be fabricating a complete wrap around situation. Just the sides and that's it. My MIP will be set on rails and will push away from me so I can exit the cockpit. Kind of like having a little trolley in front of me. As to the X-Carve 1000mm machine, they refer to it as a wood carver and almost all of the projects on their web site are wood. If you only need tolerances of .003" then I don't see why this wouldn't work well. I don't think you will be able to consistently cut good PCB's though. With a wood table there is no control over the cut of the surface. From my experience you need a ground flat table to control cutting depths with copper clad boards. Yes rudimentary PCBs are possible . Hell, some of us just used proto board or plexiglass. Its all in what you want to produce. I have some 128x32 OLEDs for displays in several instruments and I need to cut a PCB for them with really fine tolerances. You saw that last pic of mine. From my perspective, I can do anything I need for my cockpit as long as I have a good quality mill to do it. I'm afraid the router you are looking at will have some limitations. As long as you know what you can't do with it you won't be disappointed. With regards to PCB's, I have tried to design every panel as a completely integrated unit with Arduino board, switches, LED backlight ... everything connected to one PCB. Sometimes several stacked one on top of another. I have cut 50 or so PCB's of varying sizes and complexity and it has made this build so much easier and also easier to trouble shoot. I honestly could not see sending out to have them made. There have been so many and sometimes you screw up and have to redesign one. Having it in house has been a blessing to say the least. But without a machine that has the tolerances to do it, I would not bother. Yes rudimentary boards can be cut but there aren't that many I would consider rudimentary. In fact you are always fighting with space limitations. So often, so much has to go into a small space. One final note. If you are as good drawing detailed parts as your rendering and have good design sense, I think it would be a waste not to get a decent mill. I think I'm quite lucky in that I spent 20 years working with AutoCAD every single day. Its so much a part of me now that I can design while I draw and in the end I have a complete set of parts that fits perfectly together with so little effort. The mill has become my hands and everything it makes is as perfect as what I draw. It is so satisfying to see a perfect copy made of what you just drew on the screen. But in the end we are all constrained by our budgets. Its also a matter of priorities which each of us view differently. So I wish you luck on whatever your choice is and if I can be of help...you know where I hang out.:) Don't forget to post pics :smilewink:

My choice of machines has always been based on proven accuracy, strength and the quality of the parts used to build it. I look at the chinese stuff and often I have to run away fast and give myself a couple of smacks in the back of the head. They can make their CNC machines look absolutely fabulous and then they throw a price at you that you would be nuts to not accept. Problem is most of the time its crap. But it is so hard to pass up on a machine that looks that good. How could it be anything but great. :P And when the machine ends up being a dud, what are you going to do, sue them. They don't give a shit as there's NOTHING you can do to them. So my first recommendation is go with American or German made equipment. American CNC is usually strong and accurate and generally good quality throughout as long is its not made in China and rebranded as made in the U.S.A. German CNC is of course German which translates into $$$$$$$. Need I say more.:music_whistling: Nobody can afford their stuff. Too bad as it is great. You don't need a large machine to build your cockpit. I have made everything on a TAIG CNC mill with a working table size of 4" x 7" x 5"(z). You do need accuracy if you want to make everything yourself. Circuit boards are a high priority item and they can demand consistent accuracy at .0005". Here is an example of my machines best possible accuracy. Just consider the size of the LED in the foreground for scale. I was just blown away. I didn't think it could do it although the company says .0005" as a best case. So the specs for my mill as stated on their web site are .0005" and a stepper resolution of 0.000125". I'm not trying to blow my own horn here. I want you to see just what is possible and what you should be getting when all is said and done. If you can't get a cnc machine to do this then don't buy it. These are just a few of the many components you will need to make during your adventure into cockpit building. That why these things cost so much. You can buy cheap motors or controllers etc but it will catch up with you and limit you as to what you can manufacture. Then what was the point in spending all that money. My last recommendation is don't penny pinch when buying a CNC machine. My total expenditure 10 years ago was $3500.00 just for the machine and the controller. And today its running as if it was still new and I run it a lot! That's also why you spend so much initially. Its built like a brick shit house. I also have 8" x 10" metal lathe and a full size manual mill. For this project I would estimate that the manual mill gets used 5% of the time. Virtually everything I do is on my CNC mill. So tell me more about this router. I am concerned with the specs they gave you. Unless it costs a small fortune you generally don't see that kind of accuracy as they are generally used for wood and softer materials. Why don't you have a look through my picture site. http://s221.photobucket.com/user/MRAR15/library/?sort=3&page=1 I've been keeping a photo journal "so to speak" on my cockpit build. It will give you a very good idea of what you have to build and the size of the components that you will be dealing with. Then think about why a 31" router is necessary. I know how costly this machine can be. It's a major purchase to be sure. I also know their are a lot of vendors who will tell you just what you want to hear but it ends up being quite different once your up and running and your machine can't cut a simple PCB. So any time you want to discuss this in more detail I'm available.

Rocketeer, Canada is a tad to cold for me as well and the summers are too damned hot. I would love to live in California somewhere away from cities. Oh to be filthy rich...I wouldn't have to dream anymore. I believe I was the one who told you to switch over to rotary encoders.:music_whistling: I haven't employed a single pot so far. If this constant stream of data is eventually resolved I can easily replace some of my R.E.'s with pots. I understand that when Ian releases version 2 of the DCS-BIOS Arduino Libraries, he will have looked at ths particular issue. As to connecting panels, yes I have built quite a few often but I have only connected a couple. My work flow has been to get all the panel faceplates completed along with installing the switches with wiring in place. I have tested all my displays to ensure they function as needed. But, I have not connected it all together yet. That will be the last order of business. I know that each panel will work, so I am waiting to get them all installed before I compete all of the wiring. I know this whole connection thing is on everyone's mind now that the Arduino platform has made it's way into our cockpits. All I can say at the moment is that Ian and I are going to be installing an RS-485 bus to make the connection of all panels much easier and very much less problematic. I expect you will see a thread in the next week or so explaining the whole thing. I have designed a breakout board for the Pro Mini incorporating the MAX487 chip. Now it's just a matter of Ian developing the additional programming required to get it up and running. We've been waiting for the parst we needed to arrive from China before development could begin. We now have everything we require to move forward.

I have attached a PDF of the drawing I created and it has dimensions. It is also plotted at 1=1 so you should be able to print it at full scale and it will come out the actual size. There is also a bar scale so you can use that to ensure it was in fact printed at the right size. Hope that helps out. levers to scale.pdf

In response to your questions... 1. Those pics were taken before I had installed the switches. 2. Don't know... Copied it right from the cocpit pictures I had. 3. Same as 2. 4. I'll post a pic with some dimensions later today but please note these are guesstimates only. I am unsure as to their real sizes. They do look correct however and when in the panel they look virtually the same as the real thing. What do you use for drawing? I can give you an AutoCAD file or a dxf if that would be easier.

Hey Rocketeer To answer your questions... 1. what Ian said. 2. I use the PSU from a PC so I have +12v +5v +3.3v and I also have negative voltage which I did not breakout from the PSU. I will have a power rail and a ground running along the length of each console that you can break into where ever you want. The PSU is 750 watts so it should handle most everything I am powering. 3. Those are really cute little switches. I made them from scratch. Drew them up in AutoCAD, exported to CamBam, then to Mach3 and my mill for cutting. They are cut from .25" thick white styrene and then airbrushed red, grey and green Tamiya acrylic paint with a final coat of semi gloss clear coat. I posted below some enlargements of the switches and a diagram I threw together in plan view and cross section in hopes that everyone can better visualize how I made these switches. What the photo enlargements do not show are the small tactile switches I placed on the back side of the acrylic structure I use to hold the "levers" in place. There are 2, one on each end. The drawing I made shows them clearly, and when the lever rotates about its center it makes contact with either of the little push buttons. Refer to the cross section in the drawing which illustrates both possible positions. The levers themselves are basically clamped together by the acrylic sides. There is a 2mm shaft running through each lever. I also used those shafts as a means of holding them in place along with a good dab of super glue. And finally a drawing of what I made. I hope that all makes sense to you. BTW, according to the DCS A10 manual the red lever switch has no function in the simulator so I did nothing to it other than install the lever.

The visuals is no problem. I run a JVC DLA-X55R HD projector and a 12' screen that takes up the entire wall. Its almost like being there...and hopefully even better when Edge becomes a reality.

With any luck I just might build one and then you can use it as an example to develop youral own. After building the standby ADI I see no reason why the 5" ADI will be much different or more difficult. Its the globe that is the biggest concern. I can make a globe but getting nice graphics on it (I mean professional quality graphics) is the real challenge. I haven't quite figured out how that can happen...yet.:smilewink: I have been looking for a real Sperry 5" ADI and although they are readily available they are a bit pricey starting at $250-300 and then going up fast. After looking at your build I'm starting to think maybe I should be adding a full size fuselage as what your doing. I had originally planned on the 2 consoles and dash board.... and maybe a HUD but I hadn't really given much thought to going any further....until now. I shouldn't really hang around this board, I get too many ideas:music_whistling: