Dagger71

Look no matter what, you will never accept the facts. No one ever said the limit was exactly 6000m. In fact in the A10A track it happened when the A10 was still climbing over 6300mm I don't know the EXACT altitude that starts the self destruct sequence but there is one. Whether you accept it or not, I don't care anymore. The limit is going to be a NEVER EXCEED limit. It will be hard coded. No matter how much crying, begging and whining you do, will not change the fact that there is a hard coded NEVER EXCEED limit.

Destroyers are some of the most well armed anti-missile platforms in game, as they are in real life. Able to shoot down just about anything. The only effective missile against destroyers is the RB15 as it skims even lower. Although I have yet to try them out, I believe the harpoon can skim just over water and hit a destroyer. The Silkworm is really old tech, and 60m is not really skimming. Sea skimming missiles are always below 50m down to 2m over water. Not a bug.

This discussion went way way way off the rails. Even facts directly from IEMZ Kupol would not be enough. He would be SCREAMING WHY WHY WHY!!! This is worse than my 3 year old. I'm bowing out. I think this should be closed.

By the way the TOR missile self destructs BEFORE reaching 6000m in each track. The self destruct sequence happened once the target was over max ceiling.

Now you understand!! Because it is flying at 700m/s you do NOT want it to come close to reaching max radar alt of just over 7000m!! Failsafes. They exist in just about every peice of military hardware.

I never claimed it could not fly over 6000m. I claimed there is a self destruct which will engage if the target is over that ceiling limit. If it was 6122m you would cry why is it not 6130!! Ask the manufacturer for the details for more precise information. There is a limit and ED put 6000 as per even the documentation you gave (max ceiling). The max alt that the TOR can track with radar is just above 7000m so it MUST ensure a failsafe that does not allow the SAM to reach this altitude.. ever.

Let’s put this discussion to bed. I have ONE question for Fri13. At what target elevation above will the real life TOR command a self destruct sequence?

Because there HAS to be a hard coded limit. The max effective radar altitude for a TOR is around 7300m so the max launch parameter has to be much lower. It is not arbitrary!!

If the limit was 6100m you’d be crying that it should be able to continue to fly at a target at 6200m! You and Daniel will continue to move the goal posts everytime a jet flies over the limit. You will continue to ignore the limits while making assumptions that SAMs should have some sort of intelligence instead of hard limits set out by the manufacturer. You also need to read a primer on critical thinking and logic.

Self destruct mechanisms for rocket propelled munitions has been around for over 50 years. All SAMs have this fail safe.

I have never worked with SAMs but did work with UAVs used by the military that had hardcoded limits. Once the limits are reached, either a timer or a fail safe starts. Again you are making it look like SAMs are sentient thinking beings. They are not. Once a threshold is met, then the response is absolute. A SAM is not the little train that could (I think I can, I think I can), and ignore its limits because it "THINKS" it can reach the target. That's not at all how any systems work.

Where's your proof that a SAM will not self destruct once the maximum target parameters have been met?

Like I said, take your source documentation to ED. This argument is going around in circles. I don't have to provide or prove ANYTHING as I am not questioning the current SAM modelling... YOU have to provide evidence that it is wrong.

So much wrong with this. If you have proof that SAMs can actually reach the same altitude as it's max range please provide even one source. But be aware Not a single SAM in production by any country can achieve this. It's a limit of aerospace engineering and flight mechanics. A TOR is a short range low to medium altitude SAM and the variant we have modeled has max ceiling altitude of 20K feet. Do not confuse max altitude with max range. They are completely different! A 12km range does NOT equate to a max altitude of 12kms!!!! Again if you have proof that they should not self destruct when the target is outside the maximum ranges then please provide them.

These self destructs are failsafes. Reaching limits will engage the failsafes. The missiles themselves are not self aware, logical thinking, sentient beings. They do not think for themselves nor do they play the percentages. It's really not that hard to understand. If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, please provide the documentation to ED directly.

I was actually asking DanielNL so he would understand and actually answer his own problem. He is having a very great deal of difficulty using SAMs in game and refuses any help we give him. Instead he states they are bugs or makes unfounded and completely fabricated claims that it is unrealistic for a SAM to self destruct when target is outside max range or ceiling.

If a SAM is nearing its max ceiling or max range, why wouldn't it self destruct?

What's the max ceiling for the SAM? What is the target altitude when the SAM self destructs? What's your source?

Dude you can't even handle this level of simplicity, if they made them more complicated you would be completely lost!!!! And it's NOT a bug!!! What we currently have is good enough for now until a major update is done to all CA SAM units, which may be a couple of years away. Self destruct happens IRL. To what extent, no one on these forums can actually confirm without breaking military secrecy (ITAR etc), but they will self destruct. The more basic self destruct systems would be based on altitude, timer countdowns and/or loss of target acquisition. But regardless if this was simplified or realistic, you would still HAVE to respect the following: 1 Max range of SAM 2 Max ceiling of SAM 3 Alt of SAM 4 Alt of target above SAM 5 Is target climbing or diving away cold? (Will target be out of range or over max ceiling if it continues its trajectory) Currently you are ignoring 3 out of 5 and then wonder why your SAM self destructs. In each track, the target was over max ceiling and you produce even more tracks showing the EXACT same thing, and then wonder why it's behaving the way it is.... THAT is illogical!

It's timing issue. It will happen depending on how much fuel you ask for. If you go over around 70% (or might be higher) , the DMS load all sequence will have already passed by the time you actually get your weapons loaded. So quick tip, load small amount of fuel and weapons, then refuel again to the amount required, that way you won't miss the load all sequence

So next time you provide a track regarding SAMs in game, ensure the following information is considered and provided (that will be your homework). You seem to have a really big problem understanding how they work in game. 1 Max range of SAM 2 Max ceiling of SAM 3 Alt of SAM 4 Alt of target above SAM 5 Is target climbing or diving away cold? (Will target be out of range or over max ceiling if it continues its trajectory) Taking these points into consideration you should be able to successfully launch a SAM at a moving target without ever seeing a premature self detonation. If you miss ANY of those 5 vital points, then you have almost a 100% chance are, your missile will self destruct. SAMs in game are modeled extremely simple, but you do need to have even a basic understanding of situational awareness when it comes to launching SAMs and as a pilot how to avoid them. Until you learn and fully understand these vital points, I think you are going to continue to have a very hard time using SAMs in game. I did notice you were finally using the PPI, which is absolutely essential, so you are learning. Finally even IF you have all 5 important points, this does NOT guarantee a kill. But it should guarantee no more self destructs right after launch. There are also some more advanced skills you can learn to make SAMs even deadlier, like turning off SAM until bandit is almost point blank range, and placing a SAM net that relies on different SAMs at various ranges of each other. We can schedule a short training session over discord if you want.

Ignore my previous post. Watched it again and used tacview. The SAM self destructs because the A10 was climbing and reached SAM max ceiling. Try it again with the target a few thousand feet lower. 6000 m is right at the max ceiling, all he had to do was climb for a few seconds to be above max ceiling.

Compared to the reload times of all other vehicles, 20 mins does seem excessive.

Someone who understands that all SAMs have different ceiling limits and check the PPI to ensure the target is within ceiling limit. That is all you need to do to be good using SAMs in game. It's stupidly easy in DCS, but there is only one thing you MUST do before firing. We don't need more hand holding, SAMs should actually be much harder to operate.

Nothing was changed. The TORs modeled in DCS were NEVER able to shoot down planes over 25K feet above. Newer upgrades of the TOR can reach 32K feet, but we don't have that variant in game. TORs are extremely useful in the hands of someone who understands how they work.