DeadMeat

F-16C (Cougar) grip: mil-spec button upgrade Looks great :thumbup: The warthog discussion is in Debolestis' thread https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3240303&postcount=495 Note that he uses P8 switches I think so they have shorter depth. P1s do fit well enough though. I haven't seen any threads on putting OTTOs in a Cougar. I was just referring to my own experience: The Cougar wiring is a mess. Easy to take apart, tricky to put back together without pinching anything.. You can see how the push buttons have a thin neck plunger going through small holes in the surface of the grip. The tact switches inside sit in moulded structures. I had to expand the holes to fit the P1 through and remove the moulded structures inside to make them fit deep enough. A carbide tipped Dremel makes short work of fingers and soft metal so be careful. It is relatively simple to swap and solder the OTTOs in place. I used electrician's tape to make them fit. I kept the raised lip around the holes so my buttons stick out quite a bit. If you expand the holes at least the index finger button should go in further. The paddle switch I left alone. Close her up and enjoy the clicking :joystick:

Excellent work there buddy. Let us know how it goes with the wiring and mmjoy box. Space is a bit tight in the handle necks so routing could be tricky, but as long as you're dealing with digital signals only and no analog axes at least noise shouldn't be much of an issue. If you plan to do the elevation wheel with a pot you may want to look into fitting a small ADC circuit in there to boost resolution and avoid noise. It plays nice with mmjoy as well.

I should probably clarify - the stock push buttons on the Hornet are the exact same as on the Warthog so if you were satisfied with those you should be golden. I mean I used to be pretty happy with the Warthog buttons I thought they were a massive improvement over the Cougar. Too bad I took Debolestis' advice and upgraded with OTTO buttons :)

Yes that's how mine felt as well out of the box. The stock buttons are pretty mushy and have a very muted click at the end of the stroke. With the OTTO buttons there is no doubt when you make contact. The click is very distinct and somewhat loud as you can tell in the video. That's a great idea! I didn't think it about when I had the grip open though. The hats should be easy to remove since they're only held in by tabs and hot glue. They pop out through the front though so you need to unplug the connector at the base PCB first. One issue may be the trim hat "crown" (with up down left right text) that may interfere with both the center screw and the up/down jog. The former is only decorative so you could just remove it but I don't know about what to do about the jog. Would be great if someone gave it a go ;)

Thrustmaster mods --------------------------------------------- F/A-18C (Hornet) grip upgrades OTTO P1 push buttons | OTTO T4 trim switch | OTTO T5 sensor control switch F-16C (Cougar) grip upgrades OTTO P1 push buttons A-10C (Warthog) grip OTTO P1 push buttons | OTTO T4 trim switch | OTTO T4/T5 hat switches for TMS/DMS/CMS A-10C (Warthog) throttle NEW--> Full mil-spec switch upgrade [OTTO, Cutler-Hammer, Honeywell, Mason] --------------------------------------------- Just a heads up, guys - the friendly engineers at Thrustmaster made it easy to swap their stock TM buttons with OTTO buttons to massively improve the clickity on the new Hornet grip same as what you can do on the Warthog grip. I opted for the 2.5 lbs actuation force for the pinkie and full 4 lbs for the pickle button. OTTO product numbers are P1-11111 and P1-11121 respectively: Here we go mashing buttons on the grip like a fool. No trouble reaching anything. Disassembly of the grip is pretty straightforward but you will run the risk of bricking it and you will probably void your warranty. First remove the paddle lever by unclipping the c clip and pushing the shaft pin out. There’s a spring in there and a small washer on the shaft. Unscrew the three hex bolts in the handle and pop the cover off. One of my bolts wanted to stay in the grip. Unscrew the PCB and push it out of the way. Unscrew the neck part that’s held in by a single bolt that also holds the ground wire and a small lock ring. Disconnect the pinkie button connector from the PCB and pop the button out through the front by pushing in the tabs on either side. You may need to rotate the button in place with pliers to be able to access both tabs. Cut the wires, strip the ends and solder them onto the OTTO button. You’ll want as much wire as possible for the new button as it can get a little tight in there. The OTTO button has a smaller diameter than the TM button so wrap some electrician’s tape around it; press it into the grip and connect it to the PCB. Fasten the neck part and PCB back into the grip and move on to the top part. Unscrew the two outer screws in the top part and pop the plastic top back and rotate it out of the way. The pickle button should be easy to pop out by pressing the two tabs in. Note that you have to cut the wires before removing this button, unless you want to try to disconnect it at the main PCB and re-threading the wire back down the neck of the grip. Replace it with the OTTO button same way as the pinkie button: leave as much wire in place in the grip as possible and use electrician’s tape to make a tight fit. You could file down the contacts or remove some plastic backing in the grip at this point if you want to set the OTTO button as deep as the stock button. I didn’t do it so mine sits at a very slight angle. Be careful not to pinch the flimsy wires and screw the top part and cover back on the grip. The paddle lever goes on last and it can be a bit tricky to get the spring seated correctly. Upgrade complete! Here's a short video showing how to get the paddle lever spring back on: In terms of difficulty I’d say this is easier than modding the Warthog since there’s fewer buttons to mess with. I suppose you could change the spring or the tact switch on the Hornet paddle lever but it’s not going to be as much of an upgrade as what’s possible on the warthog with a P1-11122. Compared to the Cougar though this is a walk in the park. Seriously. Don’t mess with the Cougar like I did. It takes a lot of Dremel grinding to fit the OTTOs in there and the result is not going to be as neat as what’s easily possible on the Warthog. Also, the new pinkie switch gets in the way of the paddle switch since they’re much closer together. Well, good luck if you decide to mess with your grips!

Thanks for the write-up! I was running out of ports and things to tinker with

Sorry if this is derailing a bit. Hopefully this will be relevant for the Hornet grip as well :) P1-1 refers to a specific button type and style. The rest of the part number (P1-1xxxx) specifies terminal style, switch circuitry, actuation force and cap color. You can use whatever you prefer, but the button should have normally open (N.O.) circuitry (single or as part of 2-circuit) to directly replace the TM button. My warthog buttons are: P1-11118 (2.5 lbs, gray) for pinkie and side/index finger switches, P1-11121 (4 lbs, red) for thumb/pickle switch and P1-11122 (4 lbs, black) for paddle lever switch. You can maybe find them cheap used on ebay. If you're in the US Peerless is a cheap source, otherwise they'll set you back like €80/$90 total before tax on e.g. Mouser.com. Puts the price discussion on the Hornet grip into perspective :smilewink: Yes that explains the procedure pretty well I think! Please note that Debolestis used what appears to be P8-1 buttons (text says P1-1, but pictures suggest P8-1) that are smaller and easier to fit. I was not able source them in the specific versions that I wanted so I went with the P1-1 type instead which will still fit pretty well. Also note that If you do change the paddle switch button, you will have to file a bit of material off the paddle lever to make it fit. It will not be visible when assembled again:

Yup they're great. We'll see if they fit in what 6 weeks? :huh: oh the waiting time To elaborate a bit for the other folks about what we're discussing here. It is a relatively affordable and easy way to massively upgrade the Warthog by simply swapping out the original buttons at around €20 a pop (before tax) for OTTO P1-1 buttons. Of course you void your warranty and if you mess up you'll have an expensive paper weight on your hands. I still appreciate the engineering that TM put in the Warthog buttons to make a simple, low-cost, mass producible proprietary design that mimics the real deal pretty well in both looks and functionality. This goes for both the P1-1 style on the grip and the P1-7 style on the throttle panel. I think they're a massive improvement over the Cougar style buttons that are simply a coloured cap pushing directly on a tact switch that has very little travel or actuation force. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the warthog button is of course still a cap pushing on a tact switch, only this time there's a spring and longer travel involved. However, the TM buttons are nothing compared to mil spec buttons like the an OTTO P1. The operating force, the smooth travel and the crisp snap action really put these in another league. You won't accidentally drop any bombs by just brushing a button - it takes deliberate action.

The Hornet stick is now available for pre-order on French amazon for the rest of Europe that can't order directly from Thrustmaster or elsewhere. Got it for €179 including tax. Seems to be back at €199 now though, but if you're quick about it you may be able to get it at the reduced rate when it releases on amazon.co.uk or amazon.de (again). Hopefully it will fit the P1-11111 and P1-11121 that I have lying around.. :music_whistling: 2.5 lbs actuation force for pinkie comfort and 4 lbs for serious business works really well on my Warthog and Cougar sticks. Ahh sweet sweet tactile feedback

Just use snap ring pliers, aka lock ring pliers. It is a very common tool specifically designed to handle those clips. I had no problem popping the locking ring off and putting it back on again with such a tool when I replaced my push buttons on the stick

Small correction to my statement - 650 is more like 1% of full deflection :) So we may want to use a bigger value if we're going for stall speed approximation.. Gear down lights is a good indicator that you're on the ground or close to it. Depending on what you want to use it for it can be okay

Check your DCS BIOS documentation, select advanced. 65535 is the max deflection of the gauge, meaning 650 is about 10%. You can translate this to a specific indicated airspeed. The idea is that if your airspeed is above stall speed, then you should be off the ground without WoW :smartass: If you're on a moving carrier and you're taxing forward in that frame of reference your indicated airspeed can get pretty high even though you still have WoW, let's say 25 knots + your taxi speed = pretty fast indicated. In practice you may want to use a bigger value than 650, I think I indeed did adjust it up a bit. A bit of background - from what I can tell we can only infer if we have WoW in DCS BIOS, there is no specific variable that can be read directly. Alternatives to reading the airspeed gauge position (sensitive to stall speed, icing of probes, movement of carrier), could be the barometric altitude gauge (sensitive to pressure setting) and the radar altitude gauge in the F18. I suppose if you really want to be specific and make the WoW inference airframe independent, you could calculate an absolute velocity from changes to the DCS BIOS commonData lat and long coordinates. You may want to throw MSL altitude change in there to account for vertical component (climbing) and get the true vector and velocity :huh: Regardless of how you do it, you will face the issue that stall speed varies with aircraft weight, air density, load factor and lift coefficient - variables that we can't read directly from DCS BIOS..

Fantastic work. I hope you can bring this to the market as a kit or plans or whatever. It really looks like it brings the experience to the next level

Very nice work! I would think that any noise from the seat would be drowned out by the roar of the ECS and the jet engines behind the pilot :) How are the VR goggles treating you in the cockpit? Can you see the controls well enough under the face seal to operate the switches and stuff?

Looking good Andrew. No going back now

Sweet, but what do you plan on using the two 8856K7s for? Seems to me like you'd only need one for the IFF master switch, but then of course I haven't exactly seen a complete list of switches anywhere. They seem to vary between generations of hornets and possibly between manufacturers of the panels. Only other place I've seen a 'K7 used is on the A-10C CMSP.

FLIR control joystick from a Chinook: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Helicopter-Aircraft-Control-Grip-Unit-Believed-To-Be-Of-A-Chinook-Mk4-Ex-Raf-Mod/123575476825 Of interest is the DACO force transducer thumb joystick that can used to replace the Warthog slew sensor. Check out https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200198 for info on that. We transplanted one into my throttle and it is just awesome. I'm sure DAL would whip you up a controller board for a small fee if you asked him nicely :)

Keep up the good work :) Here's my take on the throttle switches and functionality: Uncertain about the 4 way comms switch, seems to be a custom of the regular T4 type 4-ways. From what I understand the center return mechanism for the antenna elevation switch is custom built around a potentiometer. Also the force transducer push button mechanism must be a custom shrunk down version of the F15 TDC to fit the handle geometry.

Sure - I have uploaded the file to the Autodesk gallery. You have to register to download it I think. I haven't refined the file further than my initial version. I printed in Shapeways' smooth fine detail plastic material for the translucency and detail but if you don't want to bother with backlight you can print in a cheaper material of course. The tolerances are pretty tight as it is so I'm not sure how the fit will be if you print in another material or use another printer.

Thanks guys. It certainly adds to the fun around the carrier. Brun, if you don't want to mess with the solenoid, the easiest way to disable downlock mechanically is probably to just unscrew the front panel and wrap something around the red override button behind to keep it pressed in when you screw the panel back on.

Got the hook switch up and running. It is a pretty simple conversion of another Tornado gear switch bought on EBay with a few added details. The handle dimensions are interpreted from photos and adjusted to fit the switch so I'm sure they're not accurate. The wheel handle is replaced with a custom designed, 3D printed hook handle. The red handle lights have been swapped for a bright green LED to provide backlight for the 'HOOK' lettering and there is a notch for holding a metal bar to defeat the uplock mechanism. The handle is printed in semi transparent material and painted so the letters can be illuminated from within. The painting process is like I do knobs and light plates - first a thin white base layer (Tamiya Primer L spray), then the letters are masked off with delicate 1 mm modeller's masking tape, followed by two layers of gray paint (Tamiya AS-7 spray). Finally the masking tape is removed and two layers of clear matte varnish is applied. Each layer is allowed to dry before the next is applied. The letters are probably sunk in a bit too deep as it was pretty difficult to mask the round shapes off and get the white paint in there in an even fashion. I had to cover some light leaks as well so the final paint job looks a little rough up close I guess. We'll call this a draft version :) The backlight intensity is PWM controlled and coded to follow the INST PNL knob position and I've coded a check to see if conditions should allow it to turn on. It seems we need power on the AC bus, which we can check for indirectly by looking at least one generator switch on and the corresponding engine RPM on the IFEI at least in ground IDLE (let's say above 60%). I've skipped the check for ground power, so during maintenance the plane cap will have to feel her way around the pit in darkness I'm afraid. The LED wiring is routed through the handle and out the back using the existing wiring. I just installed a 150R resistor back there. I've installed a hook indicator light in the front plate. This is the top part of a NKK KB series rectangular illuminated push button with the dinky amber LED. I drilled out the hole in the front plate to 8,5mm to fit the indicator and the wiring (including a 150R resistor) is simply routed out the back over the solenoid. The 'HOOK' label is simply printed on a clear sheet, cut to size and fitted behind the cap. The downlock solenoid is fed a constant supply of 12V from the landing gear switch source to keep it disengaged. I went ahead and wrapped wire around the back of the override button to keep it pressed in as well so I guess I'm covered here. The uplock is defeated by keeping a sawn off 16 mm part of the lever mechanism wedged down and in place by a slot in the handle. I use the same Monstertech brackets for mounting as I did for the landing gear switch in the first post. Here's a short video of the switch, the backlight and the indicator in action:

It works fine for me in stable release 2.5.3.22176. Are you in the Open Beta? If you're seeing the commands over the com port but nothing happens in DCS, probably they've changed the IDs around in the modules again. You can see earlier in this thread the same thing happened before. Consider downgrading your install to latest stable until Andrew takes a look...

Yeah, I measure the same 0,3A @12V. For the FET, I think most logic level MOSFET would be okay, since these are designed to give you full output at 5V. I use IRL540NPBF to drive these gear switches as well as my mag switches.

I used this this drawing (under manuals) for my own designs

Update looks good. A small nitpick - looks like you missed the LTexture and RTexture outputs for the IFEI (the small L and R that show up next to fuel quantities in QTY sub modes). Something to consider for your next update..