DeadMeat

Agree Nikolas - that's more clear way to put it Didn't mean to imply that there's a mechanical connection from the gear - I agree with carrot that would be a bad solution. Also to be fair there's WoW sensors on all 3 F16 landing gear, but they're connected to different things. For example the right MLG sensor is among other things tied to the FCR, so a fault in that sensor could cause the FCR to transmit on the ground cooking the crew chief or inhibit it from transmitting in the air blinding you if the fault went the other way. Not sure where the physical sensors sit, dash 1 just states that they are somehow connected to the strut compression (or so I'm told)

Yeah, pretty clear I guess. If you do it in code you can get by with just the MOSFET for controlling power to the solenoid like I described in the other thread. Your Arduino can check for high/low state of a downlock override button directly on a digital pin and in code you just need to check that all WoW outputs from DCS-BIOS are 0.. But no matter - I think it'd be fun to see your solution with chips instead Regarding which wheels to check WoW, "I'm told" that the A10 dash 1 mentions that WoW has to be off the "wheels" in plural to be able to move the landing gear handle up, so I guess it would be correct to check all wheels. The downlock override is mentioned to be electrically actuated - and there is no uplock on the handle other than having to pull it backwards first. For the F16, again "I'm told" that the dash 1 states that WoW is only checked for left MLG for the gear handle downlock. The override is fully mechanical however. In addition the F16 has a solenoid held handle uplock - controlled by the down permission button on the handle. It is unclear however if the uplock can be overridden - might be that the downlock override does it. On the Tornado lever I used, the downlock is defeated by solenoid or a fully mechanical override button above the handle. There is also a mechanical uplock unlocked by a small lever on the switch handle. Later versions of the lever may function differently.

My unit had the wiring diagram printed right on the side of it. If yours doesn't you will need to find the connections yourself with a multimeter. Basically the thing is just a big switch (or a number of switches in parallel), like a normal toggle switch and you can connect it to DCS like one. I don't know the PSCockpit stuff so can't help you there unfortunately; I used DCS-BIOS.

Back when we came up with adding the WoW parameter to DCS-BIOS based on the gear animation state I used it to control the downlock solenoid on this Tornado landing gear switch. Around page 2 you can see this logic being applied to control the solenoid using a MOSFET. If you prefer, you can skip the physical nand gate and do the logic in code to check for WoW being 0 for all wheels to trigger the solenoid.

I haven't tried it. Most or all mil-spec push buttons and hat switches I've seen actually have polymer buttons and hats, but I certainly get the idea that metal can feel better. In this thread I've focused on upgrading TM switches to their real/realistic counterparts, but feel free to share the results if you try out the cougar swap For reference, check out the specs on the OTTO Controls T4/T5 full size and T4 "mini trim" hat switches..

The madness continues. I have successfully swapped out the Hornet sensor control switch with an OTTO T5-0146 5-way switch: I salvaged the mil-spec switch from a rear seat side handle out of a Tornado fighter bomber I found on EBay. The handle that is: The stock TM switch is very similar in size to the real deal, only the T5 is a bit longer with the terminals and black caulk on the bottom and the T5 hat/crown on top is slightly larger: The TM sensor control switch is easily removed from the face plate but removing the hot glue and pressing in the tabs on the back side. The T5 can then be press fit into place so the mod is in principle reversible: The biggest hurdle is dealing with the length of the T5. You have to remove a good chunk of the central plate to make room. Make sure to leave some structure to support the screw holes so the grip can be closed up again and be careful not to completely destroy the groove for the trigger. Below a shot seen from the front of the grip (disassembled): The hole on the right is for the T5, the one on the left was made earlier for the T4 trim switch. The wires on my T5 were unmarked but it was a simple job to find the common and directional wires with a multimeter. I left 5 cm in place and spliced it with the wiring bundle from the stock TM switch, matching with the correct wires: The tricky thing here is that the wires for push button are both red and you need to splice the correct one with the yellow common wire from the 4-way and on to the single common wire on the T5. If you get it wrong the push button will be shorted and show up as pressed all the time. Only way to be sure is to hook it all up, plug her in and test it.. I messed up and had to swap the two red wires from common to push again. I think the TM switch is pretty good but In the end I'm happy with the upgrade unnecessary as it is. In action I find that the throw on the T5 is quite a bit longer than the TM switch and it has less of an audible click when it closes the contacts. Here's a short video comparing the two:

Sorry, I don't have the rights to make my CMS hat commercially available. I can only provide a link to a viewer of the model here if you want to recreate it. My design fits the #4-40 threaded post version of the OTTO T5. It sits a bit high though but it works. Same goes for the adapter to fit the T5 into the Warthog grip - I can only share a viewer link.

Per NATOPS section 2.10.1.1 there's a down lock but no up lock

Mini trims for the inboard throttle - I used a T4-TCG3312 (tactile version) for MIC switch and T4-CG1112 ("silent" version) for the SOI switch on my Warthog throttle upgrade... Both are in stock on mouser right now. I think the "OTTO version" of the real Mason MIC switch would be a full size T4 (same size as the trim switch on the stick grip), but the T4-T works great.

The rod does go through the spring. Here's a quick video I just shot that may help you. Don't forget the c-clip. Now where did I put mine

Right, the spring is a real pain. It takes some practice but you close up the grip and basically you gotta seat the spring first in the slot and then try to push the lever back on. You have to catch and compress the spring with the lever as you push it in.. Keep at it and you'll get it

Did you connect ground as well? If that's not it, try with different pins or a different switch. Sounds like either a short in the switch you modified or a problem with the UNO

Here's expensive example of a switch that is 4 position, 90 degree index and has continuous rotation. You could also go for a cheaper one, open 'er up and cut out the mechanical stop yourself to make it freely rotate. FWIW I think I read somewhere that the real switch is 8 position, even if only 4 of them are connected. Can't find the reference though.

yea it’s been suggested a few times but I haven’t seen anyone actually do it. Should be fairly easy The Otto T4 trim switch will not fit in the middle position but the stock trim might - but as I recall the diameter of the trim and sensor switch bodies are different so you’ll need to break out the ol’ dremel and hot glue

Sounds like you're in a good position to make whatever you decide work The TK switch may be an option! The price close to the T5, but from what I can tell it is a "tactile" version meaning it is more "clicky" than what I used (think sensor control switch on the Hornet grip) so that should be even nicer. Size wise the body looks to be a bit smaller than the T5 in both depth and diameter? The stock CMS switch is the same size as the MIC switch on the Warthog throttle. It has a loose fit on the stick grip diameter wise but tabs and hot glue holds it in place. Here are some approximate dimensions for CMS and TMS/DMS switches: Two things concern me about the TK switch, the MOLEX connector interface will be tricky to work with (unless you have the right connector handy of course) and the button style itself. You may be able to pop the hat off and replace it with your own design or attach the TM hat if you can get it off the TM switch. I was able to pop off the hat on a T4 so it may be possible on the TK as well.

Regarding wiring, I have updated my original post with a table showing how to match original TMS wires to the terminals on the OTTO switch if you want 1 to 1 wiring. It is pretty simple, on the OTTO switch the terminal opposite the direction you're switching connects to the common "C" terminal. On the TM switch it is the terminal in the same side you're switching. On the picture below, you would connect terminal 3 to C if you press the OTTO right (seen from top of the switch) /away from the camera. If you press the TM switch to the left you connect yellow (common) to black wire. You can ignore this and connect the cables as you'd like and just remap inside DCS. Only thing is the common/ground wire (yellow thrustmaster cable) has to go to the common "C" OTTO terminal otherwise the switch will behave strangely.

I can't speak to the quality of other manufacturers' grips (which I think is out of scope for this thread anyways) but if you want a A10/F16 style grip you're probably stuck with TM for now. A replacement TM F16 "viper" grip (identical to the TM warthog grip) is around USD 200 which is maybe more reasonable than going down the OTTO rabbit hole? Certainly easier and less risky. If your grip is within warranty consider filing a claim - otherwise you're left with the option to try and fix problem yourself, contact Thrustmaster support to buy a spare hat switch (if they even carry that) or buy a replacement grip. Regarding the price of the OTTO "replacement" I think you're right, it is expensive to put in our little toys (I mean very serious consumer goods haha) but don't forget they're not intended for this application either To be clear I didn't start this thread to advertise for or defend the pricing strategy of any manufacturer, OTTO or others. The thread is just here tell you that yes, if you want to, you can use OTTO switches in your Thrustmaster grips

Well you can swap them out for MIL or commercial spec switches (which is not cheap) or you can take the 4-way switches apart and replace the tact switches inside with different ones that have a more tactile feel. It is fiddly solder work to do that but it is much cheaper if you get it right. I tried the tact replacement first using OMRON B3F-1026 (on the throttle mic switch) but the end result was not really much of an improvement. In the end I went full idiot and replaced all of them with OTTOs.

Short update. I've swapped out the rest of the hat switches with OTTO 4-way and 5-way switches. I've used commercial spec switches but they are functionally identical if somewhat cheaper than their mil-spec cousins. Change the "C" to "M" in the part numbers below if you're interested in spending even more (Trim: T4-0016) DMS: T4-CQ1112 TMS: T4-CK1112 CMS: T5-CP1112N (plus 3d printed adapter and hat) The mod is not too difficult. Take the grip apart like usual. The DMS and TMS switches are easy to remove. They pop right out of the front panel from the back The CMS is trickier. You'll have to remove the hot glue and unscrew the switch body from behind and then it'll pop out. The OTTO T4 is pretty close to the stock DMS and TMS so they'll fit with a bit of electrician's tape and hot glue. The CMS is trickier, the stock switch is much larger in diameter so it would make more sense to fit a full size T5 (like the trim): I've used a smaller T5 with an adapter ring instead. The hat is custom designed and SLA printed and painted: Wiring is straight forward. Carefully unsolder the wires from the TM switches and solder them unto the OTTOs. Only thing to note is that the wiring position is "opposite" on the OTTOs compared to stock. Here is an example of how to match the OTTO switch contacts to the original TM TMS switch wiring: In the end it wont matter much (except for the ground wire), you can always remap inside DCS. I find the end result is excellent. The switching feel is great, but the improvement over stock is probably not worth the cost unless you get lucky on EBay.

You can take the grip apart and pop the sucker out from the back to investigate further. You can easily disassemble the switch unit itself and see if the little tact switches inside are damaged or there's a mechanical problem. Thrustmaster support may be able to help out with a replacement if you can't fix the tacts (or mechanics) yourself, otherwise you could drop in an OTTO T4-CK1112. I've swapped out all hat switches on my grip with OTTOs so let me do a write up on that - perhaps it is useful for you Edit: Here we go: A-10C (Warthog) grip: full OTTO hat switch upgrade

You could digitalRead() your switch and send several sendDcsBiosMessage() as you want. Throw in some debouncing for good measure. If you want quick and dirty you can use some millisecond delay() between each action, see here for inspiration: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/117635-sending-messages-to-dsc-bios/?tab=comments#comment-2634648 If you want to go more advanced you could monitor in-game switch states to trigger the additional sendDcsBiosMessage() commands as appropriate - for example if you want to lift a switch cover first and wait to throw a toggle until it is open - or if you want to go through whatever sequence one switch at a time.. If you really need to have specific timed delay between actions, it would be better to use something like millis() and check against elapsed time to avoid stopping the code with the delay(); otherwise you can't do anything else while it waits.

Well, unless something is broken on the main board, perhaps the connector is not seated properly or it is either the wires or the switch itself that are faulty. The wires are pretty fragile and can easily get pinched when you close up the grips. I've had this happen on pretty much all my grips and throttles :lookaround: If you check out the first post here, you can see how each switch has a wiring bundle that connect to the main board. Try and take the grip apart again and separate out the bundle that connects the sensor switch. Check if there's a pinch along the wires and if so you'll need to splice in a piece of wire make the connection. Any wire will do but the smaller the better since it is pretty tight in the neck of the grip. If there's no visible pinch it may be a faulty connection at or in the switch itself. You should be able to remove it from the grip and unscrew the back plate to check if there's any loose connections inside or if any of the tact switches are broken. You should be able to replace these if that is the case.

That seems like a pretty solid solution. A very neat result! I wonder if threadlocker on the screw could extend the time before it gets wobbly? Or maybe rid it completely? Something to consider for the folks that are not comfortable with epoxy I guess :)

You need to remove the nuts that hold the toggle switches in place from the top side. To do that you need to unscrew and carefully peel off the light plate first. Then you'll need needle nosed pliers or like a pair of tweezers to get in and unscrew the nuts. You may also need to unscrew and remove the plastic bracket that held the main PCB before you can slide the side PCB out.

Thanks I hope the thread can be useful reference for people that want to upgrade or just fix problems with their grips. Good luck on messing with the throttle :) I'll be sharing a few upgrades on that soon!