Gman109

Still downloading the update, once that's done I'll post a vid showing exactly what I mean regarding the Rift S/Index/Reverbs I have, and how when pointed in the exact same position as the pilot in the F16 examples I've shown, don't let you see nearly as far into the rear quarter as that pilot does in real life. I wish I'd kept one of my Pimax now to use in this example, but I got rid of them all along with the Rift, Vive, Vive Pro, Odyssey, Odyssey+, VR HMDs I just wasn't as better options kept coming along. Of note - Microsoft's own engineers say that VR units (referring to the Oculus Rift/etc of a few years ago, but it isn't much different in terms of FOV than current VR headsets) only have 100 degrees of vision, while peripheral vision is 180 degrees (40 degrees per side, or as I've been saying, 2 clock positions). Quote: https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66964/microsoft-adds-peripheral-vision-vr

I don't disagree, you're right - but look at the video, and tell me if you think that F16 pilot is just doing "low to medium" pulls based on every other factor you can see, besides the vapor. Look at the shudder of the airframe, etc, and the rate at which the plane is turning relative to what you can see outside of the canopy for reference. He's BFM fighting an F15, those aren't "low to medium" pulls/turns. It's irrelevant to the argument anyway, I only brought it up because others claimed it was "too difficult" for pilots in real life to check their rear quarter/6 while pulling G, which is complete nonsense. -Gunnars, when were you in Afghanistan? I was there a few times in the mid to late 2000s as well (worked for a couple PMCs then).

Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock. This is easily provable, I'll put up a video showing this, or you can do it yourself. I'll use all 3 different VR units I have while doing so. Take off the headset, put your hand inside where your face is so it doesn't deactivate, and point it at the same place the pilot's head is in my 2nd example. Look at your monitor screen, and see how far into your 6 area you can see on the monitor screen in DCS. Case closed. In r/l the pilot is seeing the F15 in the picture from the Youtube video I posted, easily. In DCS with the VR headset pointed in the same spot, this is impossible (again, due to you not being able to look beyond the limit of the VR headset using peripheral vision). I look into my 6 all the time using the Reverb, I've never once said I can't or don't, my point is that you have to turn the VR headset/head/body far more than you do in reality (again, peripheral vision) in order to do so, which then gives TrackIR users a big advantage in speed/easiness of doing the same in PvP combat online. Also, since when is 7 G "low to medium" G. That F16 is doing VERY hard pulls, all while looking into his rear quarter as I said. Hell the Hornet is limited to 7(.5).

Well said, agreed 100%. Agreed as well - another flight sim (can't mention it due to understandable rules) I've played since it came out in 1999, a MMO WW2 game with 3 chess piece sides, has implemented just such a thing right from the start of their VR implementation, and it works well. You can use the hat/key pad view system of the game while using VR, allowing you to look behind yourself just as fast as TrackIR players can. Not realistic, and can be a bit of a deal breaker for those who dislike having their VR experience ruined by things like that, but it DOES work.

Again, disagree - I use Monster mounts on the left/right just as you describe, with a swivel chair. When I put my head in the exact same position as the pilot in the second picture I posted, I can only see in between 3 and 4 oclock in the Reverb/RiftS/Index, NOT to 5 to 6 oclock as the F16 pilot is in my real life example. AGAIN, the reason is you can't use your peripheral vision in VR (yet), while in real life this is automatic. In order to see the F15 in the example pic I took from the video, while in VR doing the same thing, I need to be turned around in my swivel chair and nearly pointing my face RIGHT AT 5 oclock, which means pushing back from my desk and swiveling the chair, which in real life, isn't required, only a slight adjustment to my hips/shoulders gets my head to 4 oclock, and my peripheral vision takes care of the rest to 5-6 oclock.

I know that, you missed the other thread I think where this same discussion happened. I was being sarcastic, as everyone arguing my point was calling TrackIr users "cheaters". I just forgot to put it in quotes this time.

The experience in a centrifuge is much worse than in an aircraft, ask anyone who has been in both. Look at the video I posted - the F16 is clearly pulling high G in turns (look at the vapor coming off the wings and fuselage) vs the F15 he is fighting, yet he is constantly putting his neck/body/head into a position where he can look above/rearward behind his 3 to 9 line. The pilot is constantly looking towards the threat that's behind him (or across the circle, either way his head/eye position is looking into the rear quarter) in this video, and there are hundreds of examples of similar videos of pilots doing the same. At 4:30 to 5:30 the F16 pilot the video I posted is doing exactly what you're claiming is oh so difficult - while not easy, it isn't all that hard either. Especially look at 4:48 to 4:55, the vapor coming off the plane is huge (high G obviously), and the pilot is turning not just his head, but using his non stick arm (left) to help pull himself around to look right back at the F15 across the circle (way across, he's in the rear quarter). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgfFb8Vcsc Below pic taken from the same video, you can see the dot that is the F15 at 5 oclock (it's right above the cockpit camera on the left canopy rail), and this is the furthest point that the pilot's head turns to look/check the F15's position. It's plainly obvious how far his peripheral vision is looking to see the F15 here - again, IF the pilot was wearing a VR headset and looking at that F15 in DCS in the same position, he'd have to crank his head/body around another 2 clock positions in order to see the F15. It's at timestamp 6:15 in the video, you can see the F15 clearly in the vid. For VR to be truly realistic, it needs to take into account peripheral vision, which it does NOT right now. The eye chart linked shows the degrees in red that peripheral vision can be used, and it certainly can't be in any of the VR headsets I've tried/own (all of them). That won't make using VR "easy", certainly not as easy as the TrackIr cheaters, but it'll make it more competitive with them, as you won't have to spin in your chair and point your VR unit/head almost directly at your rear to see your rear quarter, you'll be able to see into your rear quarter past your 3 to 9 line just as the F16 pilot does throughout his BFM fight with the F15 in the above video.

That's a good point, as you frequently see pilots grabbing various places to help reposition the body to help get the view towards the threat in the rear quadrant. I pointed out in my last post regarding twisting the hips and shoulders in order to help get the eyes towards the rear too - also, regarding peripheral vision, look at timestamp 2:11/2:14 or so here, with an F15 at around 4:30 to 5 oclock position - the pilot twists his shoulders/hips just a bit, just enough to get his head to around 3:30 - his peripheral vision does the rest, as IF he was wearing a VR headset with its limitation in this regard, he'd never have put eyes on the F15, where he clearly does here. The F16 pilot here's head is pointing almost closet to 3 than 4 oclock, yet he clearly sees the F15 at 5 oclock when he looks for it over his left shoulder here. THIS is what I've been railing about exactly - IF someday we get a VR headset that either has a much wider POV like the new Pimax8k (I had a Pimax last year and this still didn't help much regarding seeing 6 oclock), or better yet one that somehow uses eye tracking to simulate using peripheral vision, that'll make VR even more realistic than it is now, as IMO it's much, much more difficult to see to 5 oclock in VR than it was for this F16 pilot to do in real life. 6:39 is a good example in the video below as well - you can see him looking towards his 6 oclock, but look where his helmet/visor is pointing - if that was my Reverb/Index/RiftS, I wouldn't be seeing what he's seeing (the F15 is almost bang on his 6) using his peripheral vision, I'd be a couple clock positions away still at 4 oclock. I've never worn a Jhmcs helmet, but I've worn 2 different Soviet/Russian helmets with a sighting system for the AA11 on 2 occasions, when I flew in the Mig29 and SU27, and I found I could twist around and see back to 5/7 oclock as I've posted before, even under some G. I don't know how possible it is at 7 to 8 G to look over your shoulder like this, as we were only pulling 4 or 5 max except when we did max performance turns, and my head was pointed straight ahead then, trying not to grey/black out. Also, when puling 7+ g, you're almost always going to be looking across the circle at your threat, which means looking "up" more than twisting your neck sideways (4:30 in same video as an example). The F16 pilot here makes it look pretty easy, at least certainly not "hard". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgfFb8Vcsc

Great review Dburne. I've got 2 GFmk2/revB and a single Mk1/first gen Gunfighter as well. I'm just waiting for the quarantine on ordering to finish so I can get my GFmk3. Very helpful review and pictures, thanks again.

While obviously not the fastest/optimal, IMO your system Malarcky with the 2060 will be adaqute with the Rift S, to give your a decent experience with as you said, some details turned down. The Rift S is actually impressive in this area IMO, with mid range systems, it performed better than I thought it would when I tried mine on a laptop with a 1080, which should be reasonably close to your desktop 2060 (you might be even better/faster with a desktop 2060 in fact). Purchase your Rift S from Amazon or the Microsoft store depending on your country, and you can always return it if you don't like it, easily too. I'll bet you keep it. edit - so far as reading gauges/details, you can strike a balance between performance and readability, or, as many do, use the 2 zoom functions to zoom in on gauges/screens to read them quickly. This is the one area the Reverb/Index have an advantage over the Rift S (I have all 3) - clarity of gauges/etc, and overall detail obviously too. That said the Rift S is still very usable, you just need to adapt a little bit with it.

Not yet, but I look forward to trying it at as soon as I get home to my DCS system. Looks promising.

Gunnars Driver - do you fly helos, transports, or fighters? You don't need to do much looking back in transports, or even helos so much (I have about 550 hours in Md500 and R44 helos). I noticed when I flew in the Mig29 and Su27 about 13 years ago that I could see fairly well behind me, even in the 2 seaters, and when I sat in (didn't fly obviously) the single seat Mig and Su27, looking to my rear wasn't that hard. Most of us can put our chin more or less on our shoulder, but that's about as far as the neck rotates. If you turn at your waist and your shoulders and point your shoulders at about 45 degrees, looking to your direct 6 using peripheral vision is easy. I find in VR (Rift S/Reverb/Index/all the others) that it isn't - due to not being able to take advantage of peripheral vision, and only being able to put my chin on my shoulder thereabouts, seeing much past 4 and 8 oclock in VR is very hard - even in a swivel chair, if you're using HOTAS in desk mounts (monster) like I do, you can't easily swivel, and even if you don't have anything blocking the chair, it's pretty slow and cumbersome to swivel the chair compared to real life IMO. I agree with others here that VR is much more realistic than other options, but IMO that realism starts to drop as you start looking beyond your 3-9 line, due to peripheral vision not being available in VR. I wish there was a solution in VR right now to make it as easy to look behind your plane to your 6 as it is in RL. Just my opinion.

I'm about the same in terms of hours per week right now, for single player 10 to 15 hours, and about 10 more for multi, and I agree. I've had squadmates who were into VR back in the 90s, Razer Hydra, Vuzix VR1200, Emagin VR1200, sets like that, some of which could cost up to $2k. I got into when the DK1 came out, and didn't look back. Once the Rift/Vive first gen units went retail, I was hooked too. With the Index and Reverb now, and even to some extent the Rift S, a serious level of immersion can be attained for 1/3 the cost of $2k way back when for HMD(s) that didn't give 1/50th the performance we get now.

1. Nice job, insulting something many vets and players here put a lot of work into

You're making my point for me - again. You consider it "cheating", when someone uses TrackIR vs VR - cheating means an advantage, which AGAIN is my entire point. TrackIR (cheating, unrealistic, or otherwise), is an advantage specifically for the reasons YOU JUST STATED, when doing PvP BFM specifically IMO. While you may consider it an "advantage" to learn to fly in a more realistic way using VR, I can tell you for certain that most of those who just want to WIN in PvP BFM consider it an advantage to have the TrackIR crutch.

It's funny how the same players who will say "VR is absolutely a more immersive and better experience, hands down than 2D/TrackIR", as though it's self evident, will refuse to accept a similar statement about just ONE particular aspect of DCS (dogfight/duel) when it comes to the inverse. Again, the vast majority of my DCS flying is spent in one of the 1/2 dozen VR units we have kicking around at any given time. However, it's not that I just "prefer" TiR over VR in dogfights/duels, it's just as evident to me and anyone else that is truly competitive - this is the key component your statement is missing, I'm talking about those who competed in various large/popular events like the Folds of Honor and other ED/etc sponsored dueling events - that TrackIR is a huge advantage over VR in DCS PvP BFM. Know how many pilots who were competitive in the DCS BFM/Folds tournament recently, and also used VR while doing so? Of course everyone is free do whatever - that doesn't change the facts about what type of hardware benefits each kind of play/flight. Again, nobody seems to want to prove that VR is equal to TiR in BFM online by demonstrating so, which pretty much says all one needs to hear on the subject.

That was exactly my point about peripheral vision. I didn't just come up with that on my own, a good friend of mine I went through school with went a different route of service, and just retired as a 3500 hour Hornet pilot, and has flown the Gripen, SuperHornet, F16, F15, and has done the F35 training as well (he was Canada's CO of the test pilot program prior to recently retiring, and now flies fighters with a private company doing RedAir contracting with various NATO airforces). That was the first thing out of his mouth when using the Pimax5k I had at the time he tried VR on my system. That's incorrect, and frankly ridiculous, if every time a threat aircraft got on your 6 you were ruled dead, there would BE no exercises such as Red Flag/etc. The human eye is first attracted to motion, anyone who has any training at all in low light fighting (or any light condition combat for that matter) knows this. This is and has been exactly my point - is English not your first language? If not then I can understand, as I thought I made this pretty clear...and again, the REASON why when dogfighting in visual range online TiR has such an advantage over VR. Try and find 3 people here on these forums with the XTAL. I know of 2, and one was likely just lying to get attention, as he never posted a single picture of it being in his possession before he "sent it back".

This the only point I take issue with. Care to duel 1v1 using your Reverb, and I'll use TrackIr some rounds, and my Reverb/Rift S/Index in some other rounds, so I can point out where TiR has a massive advantage in A2A dogfighting?

Agreed, as a ratio, there is a good argument that cost/value, that the MFGs are the best as the OP said. Mine held up well to a year of daily flying another online MMO Flight sim that's existed since 1999, a good 4 hours a day when I was using them. $$$ being no object, IMO Slaw, and probably Virpil (we'll soon see so far as my opinion once mine become available and arrive), are unbeatable.

Agreed, IMO Slaw's construction materials, design, and attention to detail is the best among all custom rudder pedals makers (and mass produced such as the TM pedals as well). I haven't gotten a set of the new Virpil pedals as of yet though, as the highest level model they sell is still out of stock, but that's the only set out there really out of those currently used and common that I haven't tried and compared yet. Slaws do cost a lot of $$$ though, but dealing with him is easy, good comms, and relatively straightforward banking instructions (you have to do a xfer, no paypal or credit card, but that's NBD in my experience).

Like I said, VR can't simulate peripheral vision, which is critical to pilots' ability to see in the rear quarter/6. You only need to get your head/neck to about 4 or 8 oclock position, your peripheral vision will take care of the next clock positions (you can see this in your aforementioned Youtube videos in any video of a fighter pilot doing BFM and tracking visual range threat aircraft that are behind him). So far as dot/spotting distance, agree absolutely, I have 3 different monitors that all give differing results/advantage depending on what settings and resolutions I run them at (native or otherwise), from 27" to 34", 1080p up to 4k, etc. And like you said, it depends on what type of online flying one is doing, air quake/dueling or a more realistic type of PvP like say Blue Flag, where VR isn't nearly as much of a disadvantage as on a dueling/dogfight server. I'm sure not giving up VR, and will continue to use it for the majority of my DCS flying.

I have several pairs of peds - CH pedals x3, Saitek Combat pedals x 2, Simpeds, VKB pedals, Slaw 109Cam pedals, MFG xwind, and Slaw RX Viper pedals, among others. While MFG are good pedals, claiming they are the "best" is a bit of a stretch right now IMO with the Slaw Viper RX out there, and the Virpil peds as well.

I've had every VR headset, several of each in fact, except the XTAL. Still using VR, both the Rift S and Reverb. That said, for doing PvP competitively online (particularly 1v1 dueling with SRM and especially guns), IMO you're at a massive disadvantage in VR versus TrackIR. Not so much because of the resolution, but because of how much more difficult and slower it is to look behind your 3-9 line. I've heard many in the VR forum say this is "nonsense". Anyone who wants to prove they can beat me, or say Growlingsidewinder/etc using TrackIR with their VR headset on, PM me and show me how. VR is great, but for competitive online play, IMO it's a big disadvantage when you get into visual range fights. Swivel chairs and all the other "tricks" simply can't make up for the speed and ease TrackIR users can simulate looking back and tracking the threat. Peripheral vision, which in r/l allows the eyes to make up for that last 20 or 30 degrees the neck/head can't turn, isn't modeled in VR (yet) either. I do 3/4 of my DCS flying in VR still - but when it comes time to fly online PvP, the Reverb gets parked, and the TiR goes on. For now. To each their own, but I agree with most in this thread, that VR is a must have - I only state the limitations it still has with regards to being competitive in online PVP duels IMO.

Redgum, check the used sections online in your country's Craigslist/Kijiji type outfits. I have a dozen places here in Canada as wells as various flight sim forums that I check daily (I've collected Hotas since the 90s). I recently found a brand new, like the twist ties never unwound, CH FighterStick and CH Throttle for $25 USD delivered. This would be perfect for you IMO, something along those lines/prices, and then buy a pair of VKB Pedals (the best bang/buck in custom pedals IMO, and someday if you upgrade your HOTAS they'll still serve you well).

I too have a medium-ish astigmatism in my right eye, which increased the cost from 99 to 122$ CAD, but IMO this is still an extremely good price and value for these lenses. Considering I paid MORE from 2 other makers, which provided a vastly inferior product, I'm very satisfied with the cost to value ratio that this company provides. Must have IMO for any VR user that needs near sighted correction, and should be budgeted into any VR purchase, again IMO. The Rift S has been the only headset that my glassed fit comfortably in, the Reverb is awful on that count for me. Chapa - have you any experience with lenses without the added Blue filter they offer, in order to compare what it's like with or without it? Even if not, could you perhaps expand a bit on how that Blue/filter option is? I've not gotten it on any of the lens sets I've purchased, and now I'm wondering if I should email them and get them to add it to my current order which is just beginning it's process.