Bearfoot

Absolutely. The (plastic) KG-12 is a placeholder grip. Almost like dust cover. It's adequate for WW2, Mig-15, F-86, and, maybe at a pinch the Huey. But even then it is a stretch, and lacking the meta functions. "WWII aircraft aren't the primary reason myself (and i assume most others) own DCS": always amazed as the way people so easily and unquestioningly project their own needs, wants, desires, motivations, etc. to the rest of the world. I play DCS for helos and WW2 birds 99.99999% of the time. So do most people in my own bubble (naturally). The F-14 (even more than the F-18) may tempt me to dabble in jets. But currently if DCS dropped support for WW2 birds, my usage would drop 50%. Same with helos. My guess as to the feelings of the larger community is as good as yours. Though "wishful thinking" is probably a better term than "guess" or "assumption". "toebrakes ... feel very natural" --- not on the Spit or Mig. You have to depress the toe brake and push the rudder on the same side. Really awkward. But the bigger point is: sure, you can work around the shortcomings of the TMWH when trying to fly a non A-10C ... but then, the same statement can be made about pretty much anything. Of course, the ergonomics in the WH stick are really good. But the addition of the analog brake, the mini-stick mouse, plus the extra hat switches just takes it to the next level. It's about "making it work" vs. "making it work better". You are correct. And, in principle, the question is the same whether the price difference is $0 or $1000. The problem is, of course, you are not going to know how it really feels till you handle it. You can rely on other folks' opinions, but then you are just betting $100 on some random person on the internet who you hope shares the exact same tactile preferences as you. As for the comparison on paper, beside the price the only other thing I see is 100% plug-and-switch WH compatibility vs. the unrestricted range of (more) buttons, hat switches, mini-sticks, and analog axis. Assuming you plan on keeping the stick for, what, 5 years? 10 years? That $100 difference will get amortized away to practically zero. So that just leaves the legacy-compatibility vs. augmented features. There is literally an infinite number of ways to configure the VKB: choice of springs for each axis, dry clutch settings, etc. Followed by software dead-zones and responses. I am sure the Virpil has the same (sans dry clutch? I think?). Someone can only reasonable be expected to test a couple of configurations. And these configurations, furthermore, reflect one's personal preferences (do you like a stiff stick or a sloppy one; progressive tension vs linear; a sharp return to the center or a gradual one; a hard center detent or a soft one or none at all; etc. etc. etc.). Add to that one's preferences may change depending on what they are flying (helos vs WW2 vs jet fighters vs airliners) and even over time (e.g., first time you try a stiff stick you might like it, but after a while you realize you may want a softer one). And add to that, it takes experience and experimentation to even understand how different configurations of springs, dry clutch, etc. etc. effect the feel of the stick. And then let's consider the comparison itself: you can measure precision and some other features by software, objectively. But given the hall sensors I really think it is going to be equal here, and the gazillion other variables noted above are going to play a bigger role. So what's left is subjective feel. Which is not only subject to all the other variables above, but also is by definition impossible to measure objectively or consistently, communicate reliably enough to capture the full richness of detail, nor very likely simply not transferable from one person to another. So, maybe not so simple? ;) That's not to say such first-hand comparisons will not be useful or interesting ... but, unless one stick is a total lemon, basing a buying decision is not necessarily going to be any less a leap of faith.

"do they really have a lack of confidence in their products quality / design that its easily damaged by your average computer enthusiast?" LOL. It's not so much lack of confidence in their products, nor the average computer enthusiast that are the issue ... but rather lack of confidence in the more clumsy/stupid/incompetent enthusiast who may break things, however simple or robust, and then may demand compensation. Either way, it is clear that you have made up your mind to your own satisfaction based on speculation and conjecture, so I doubt you will learn very much from any discussion here. But I will just say this about the TMWH compatibility: I get it's important to you, and, yeah, it's an easy cause to get behind at first glance, but personally I have come to see it as a white elephant. 100% compatibility means it limits the number of buttons, switches, and axes that can be supported. Drop the compatibility, and you can get, in addition to all the regular buttons and hat switches: an analog brake lever (for the Brit and Soviet WW2 birds), a trigger guard button (for any WW2 bird), and 2? 3? more 4-way hat switches as well as mini-stick. I'll take all of that with a cherry on top over TMWH compatibility, thank you very much! Not only will I be able to support the HOTAS mapping of any aircraft with all of that, but there will be sufficient buttons remaining to support all the essential "meta" functionality required in simming which are now scattered about the throttle and other places (VR zoom, enter, LMB/RMB/scroll, VoiceAttack, etc. etc.) or the secondary station mappings (e.g. radar controls of F-14 GIB, or Gazelle/BO 105 a/c commander). So, I think VKB made the correct choice in unshackling themselves from the constraints of the controls of yesteryear ... p.s. and what is "logical" or not to you is not the same for me: the grip that comes with the desktop VKB is a simple one, plastic KG-12 (as opposed the fancy T-# Mongoose one). $20 is probably close enough to cost, so that premium over just the base makes perfect sense.

You guys are in the relatively unique position (or, at least, select group) capable of actually assessing/evaluating these two fantastic offerings. Some of the speculations I've seen on this thread are absurd ("too small to be strong" --- lol, they should look at a helicopter jesus nut sometime). Looking forward to seeing your experience-based first-hand opinions. Don, you really should open up that box and set it up to do the comparison between the table top versions! Takes 10-20 mins or less, and the grip can be swapped in even less time (as in 2 mins). Or, for that matter, even just a peek at the internals, fit and finish to get an idea of the comparative workmanship would be really nice!

You do realize that the difference between the "base only" and "base and grip" is something like $20-25, right? So all that is happening now is you need to pay effectively $20 extra for that $299 base. Now, if you think that $20 (~6.5% premium) is enough to tip the balance between "worth it" and "not worth it" for you, fair enough.

I've been using Synkron (http://synkron.sourceforge.net/) for a long time now to do exactly that. In addition to syncing from 2.x to 1.5 and vice versa, also sync to Dropbox as back up.

Be warned though! Other people have reported the OPPOSITE: i.e., WORSE performance. So many variables, from hardware to software settings ....

As I discussed [here](https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=188139), I am seeing significant, substantial, and material improvement in Nevada in 2.1 over 2.0! Getting 45 FPS where I was getting 22/23 before, and 90 FPS where I was getting 45 before.

THIS WORKS!! Getting 90 FPS over Normandy now :) I describe my experience here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3156415&postcount=47 As I noted, I had to delete (or actually rename) the entire ``~/Saved Games/DCS.openalpha/`` folder for it to show results, but I also had my SteamVR inadvertently on when I was testing just deleting the ``metashaders`` folder, which was interfering with performance, so it may actually work with removing just the latter instead of the whole ``~/Saved Games/DCS.openalpha/`` folder. Either way, thanks for discovering this and sharing!

Holy crap!! This works! BACK TO 90 FPS OVER NORMANDY!! This should be part of a FAQ/sticky, otherwise folks experimenting with different settings may not realize that their changes may not necessarily be reflected in the performance due to reliance on the cached shaders! I should note that I first tried deleting just the metashaders folder, and saw no difference. Then I deleted the whole ``~/Saved Games/DCS.openalpha/`` folder. And still no difference. And then I realized that I had SteamVR up and running. Closed that down. And voila! 90 FPS! Due to my clumsiness in forgetting about the SteamVR being on, I cannot pin down whether deleting just the ``metashaders`` subdirectory was sufficient or not, as the SteamVR may have been intefering with this result. But deleting the entire ``~/Saved Games/DCS.openalpha/`` folder definitely works! This is a major pain, though, because deleting this means ALL your options (graphics, gameplay, various special options, etc.), your missions/campagins, your login, etc. all have to be reset, redone, or otherwise copied over. So it would be great if just the metashaders removal is sufficient to clear the cache. In the future, perhaps a dedicated utility or even an option inside DCS to do this would be nice. Thanks to Cibit and Accipiter etc. for exploring and sharing this! P.S.A: make sure your SteamVR is off/quit/closed in you are using Oculus Rift! MAJOR hit in performance ...

Cibit, this makes a lot of sense, and the logic is consistent with the behavior I noted. Thanks for sharing this insight -- much appreciated! Will give it a try later tonight :)

Nice! Sharing ...

Yep. In 1.5, 2.0, and 2.1.

https://www.monstertech.de/en/product/joystick-hotas-table-mount/

Who flies high in a helo? :)

Excellent! Thanks for the heads up! Looking forward to this :)

Anyone got a guide to the pilot and GiB station HOTAS controls?

Anyone got a handy schematic/breakdown/guide to the buttons and controls on: (1) the cyclic (2) the collective (3) other controllers so we can plan our hardware and mappings?

eSo, here is where things get crazy. I switched on the deferred shading. And, just to get things a little heavier, upped the shadows, MSAA, and anisotropic filtering. Sure enough, FPS dropped to to 35-40, sometimes touching 45 (ASW on). Ok, well and good. Switch everything back. Not seeing my 90 FPS anymore over Normandy! With ASW off, see that I'm getting 60-70 FPS, sometimes touching 90. But with ASW, steady 45 FPS, over land at least (sea gives me 90). Switch everything to the minimum. Same. 45 FPS easy, no matter where I am over land, high or low, but no more of that sweet 90 I had before. NTTR still gives me 90. What gives?? Is it possible that switching deferred shading on somehow changes things --- maybe in some pre-compiled graphics/images --- from which there is no going back, even after it is switched off? I can live with the 45 FPS for now, and am looking forward to optimizations, but the logic of what I am seeing befuddles me ...

VKB Gunfighter is what you want

Thanks, Rainer. Appreciate the help, as usual!

When do we need to recalibrate the stick? I.e., after changing grip, springs, or dry clutch seem to be obvious candidates. What about when when just disconnected/reconnecting? Is a periodic calibration required? Is the calibration stored with the stick or in the OS somehow/somewhere? If the former, does the flash EPROM on the stick have a limit to the number of calibrations?

You have got some pretty respectable horsepower. Makes no sense! Have you tried disabling windows indexing? Apparently, files get written/changed when a mission is loaded, and if indexing is on, Windows will try to index the constantly changing files. Also, are both the OS and game on SSD?

Yep, that makes sense. But that only covers a portion of the folks, tho. There are other folks who are reporting bad performance with everything off and/or turned low. And in many cases, their rigs are equal or superior to mine. E.g., ram0506.

Hah! You were the only one who got it! (Or, alternatively, liked it enough to respond!)

+1. An indication from devs whether or not this will be looked into, even at an indeterminate time in the future, or not, would be psychologically very helpful!