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Reworked Cockpit Views with proper Neck


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I'm confused. You say for the new 1.2.5 beta version you remove any previous installation of this mod, then add the Server.lua file to the User/Saved Games/DCS folder, but the previous version of the mod said to copy Server.lua into the main DCS installation folder.

 

Does this mean that you're changing how the mod is installed in all future releases? Is the only file necessary to install the new 1.2.5 version the one I should put in the User/Saved Games area?

 

Please forget everything you learned about the installation process for the old 1.2.4 mod.

 

Just simply follow the new installation instruction - and everything will be fine.

Edit: Removed the 1.2.4 mod ReadMe from Post #1 and made the links to the Beta even bigger - I hope this will prevent further questions like the one above and this.


Edited by PeterP

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PeterP this is great thanks but one thing I noticed with the mission loaded and this has nothing to do with the neck mod but the big Russian transport plane the white and blue stripe thing can't remember what its called is submerged like it sank into the hard stand looks funny perhaps its just my end.

Eagles may soar high but weasel's don't get sucked into jet engines.

 

 

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PeterP this is great thanks but one thing I noticed with the mission loaded and this has nothing to do with the neck mod but the big Russian transport plane the white and blue stripe thing can't remember what its called is submerged like it sank into the hard stand looks funny perhaps its just my end.

 

Thanks Jay,

This has nothing to do with this mod or thread ,

...and we have a dedicated bug-section for reporting observations like yours - I saw this too and I can go on and list many similar things like this... - but guess what?! It's already reported - !:)

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Hi Peter,

 

i didnt used you mod, but now i have seen some vids. I will install it right now.

 

Thank you Mr Guybrush:lol::thumbup:

 

Looking forward

 

S!

 

 

Peter, its fantastic, i tried it now. I will not miss it again. The A-10C feels much better now. Recht herzlichen Dank.

 

 

PS: Where do i have to put that mission?

 

TY


Edited by LcSummers
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Thanks Jay,

This has nothing to do with this mod or thread ,

...and we have a dedicated bug-section for reporting observations like yours - I saw this too and I can go on and list many similar things like this... - but guess what?! It's already reported - !:)

 

 

Ok Peter sorry for that I just found it funny as I flew past and noticed that the fat belly beast is to heavy for the tarmac made me chuckle.

Eagles may soar high but weasel's don't get sucked into jet engines.

 

 

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Cooling: Predator 360

Power Supply: OCZ ZX Series 80 Plus Gold

Drives: Samsung SSD's 1tb, 500g plus others with OS Win10 64 bit

 

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Fantastic once again Peter. Thanks

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Great mod, even if im not actualy using it, it helped me to set up my own custom views.

 

One question tho, Is there any way to make whole hud (A-10C) smaler (like if its projected further away) ? Because with view shifted somewhat, edges of the hud are dificult to see.

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Great mod, even if im not actualy using it, it helped me to set up my own custom views.

 

One question tho, Is there any way to make whole hud (A-10C) smaler (like if its projected further away) ? Because with view shifted somewhat, edges of the hud are dificult to see.

 

 

I've been trying out this mod and I really like it, only issue I'm having is the same one as above - edges of the HUD are getting cut off.

 

Thanks!

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The only downside I've come across so far is,

 

A. The inability to create snap views like the default ones because the constraints keep you from creating a perfectly top down view over the side consoles

 

B. Tanking is a bit weird because looking up too much obscures the entire boom

 

The second one is clearly the result of us being forced to move our heads and not being able to look up with our eyes in game and the fact that my monitor isn't big enough to have a resolution that gives enough vertical FOV for my real eyes to accomplish the same thing.

 

Either way, its a great mod and I don't want to fly without it anymore. :)

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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The only downside I've come across so far is,

 

A. The inability to create snap views like the default ones because the constraints keep you from creating a perfectly top down view over the side consoles

 

Just use the numpad keys to adjust the view to make snapviews above the side consoles. At least that's what I did last night in the A10C with this mod installed. I'm not using headtracking at the moment though, as I haven't got my LEDs sorted out yet, so I don't know if that locks out the numpad view adjustment but if it does, I guess you could just disable headtracking, launch DCS and setup your snapviews, then close DCS and re-enable headtracking..

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The only downside I've come across so far is,

 

A. The inability to create snap views like the default ones because the constraints keep you from creating a perfectly top down view over the side consoles

 

You can always edit constraints in Server.lua I think, or even disable them.

There are no constraints for experimenting with viwes.

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I've been trying out this mod and I really like it, only issue I'm having is the same one as above - edges of the HUD are getting cut off.

 

Thanks!

im having the same issue with the f15c. the hud is too wide and i cant read the outside numbers on the tape. dont know if it is supposed to be like this or if it is something that needs adjusting. anyway, some clarification qould be nice and thanks for this mod the shoulder thing is kind of revolutionary my view system is feel so much more natural now.

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Just use the numpad keys to adjust the view to make snapviews above the side consoles. At least that's what I did last night in the A10C with this mod installed. I'm not using headtracking at the moment though, as I haven't got my LEDs sorted out yet, so I don't know if that locks out the numpad view adjustment but if it does, I guess you could just disable headtracking, launch DCS and setup your snapviews, then close DCS and re-enable headtracking..

 

Its not the head tracking, its the fact that your head movement is limited to certain parameters. This means you cannot put your view directly over either side console, instead you have to do it from an angle which means I cannot get the desired zoom on the CDU for instance without cutting off the bottom most switches. The shoulder width update is really what made this an issue for me. Previously it was fine, but now the shoulder thing has further narrowed the constraints such that I don't even try to make a snap view for my radios, I just do it for the CDU now.

 

Good news is that I don't need one for the Nav or Comm radios thanks to this mod, but still it would be nice to have one.

 

You can always edit constraints in Server.lua I think, or even disable them.

There are no constraints for experimenting with viwes.

 

I might experiment with that.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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For all that are confused why the " edges of the HUD are getting cut off.":

 

Please make your self familiar how a real collimated HUD works

and/or just follow the links in post#1 - it's been discussed about a dozen times in this thread...or just google it... - and you will soon realizes that this absulute normal and a consequence when you have your (virtual) eyes not turning around them self any-more.

 

Here is a little test you can do your own and will maybe serve you as 'eye-opener' to get a idea why the things are like they are when you are not turning your eyes around themselves :

 

26040089.jpg

 

Form a square with both hands in a arm's-length in front of your head and keep this 'window' static.

Now observe what's happening with things you can see in a distance inside this square when you move your head from left to right .

Now combine this 'newly learned' with the knowledge that a collimated HUD is focused to 'infinity'.

...

 

 

 

It's also not possible to 'only' smaller the HUD - it has a fixed size bound to a certain FOV it is covering and the HUD is carefully calibrated to the whole cockpit-frame/fuselage. And there is only a small narrow band in which the HUD projection can be fully seen. Changing a parameter of it will de-calibrate it and make your aiming reticles useless and way-points will not be placed where they are.

You will have to move your head towards the HUD to 'smaller' it.

 

 

I'm sorry for this 'annoyance' ... welcome to reality!

 

...So make your self familiar how to save a new default cockpit view (...it's basically done in two steps and within seconds...) - a instruction is posted where you downloaded this mod - sorry - I can't set it up for you - you have to do it your own, as what is usable on a 16:9 display can be awful at a triple head setup and it also highly depends on the used FOV.

(BTW: This has been also discussed about a dozen times in this thread)

 

 

 

About : 'the constraints keep you from creating a perfectly top down view over the side consoles'

 

This mod uses reduced cockpit movement limits that prevents you to put your virtual Eyes at impossible places - like directly above you knees or between the HUD frame.

This affects also the ability to make a perfectly Top-down snap-view of certain cockpit elements.

BTW - a real pilot will also not have the ability to view this device in such an angle as long he respects the safety regulations and keeps sitting in the seat while flying -instead of 'wandering-around' in the cockpit or even braking his neck and/or pulling out his eyes ...

 

 

 

______________

 

All above 'restrictions' are made with realism in mind.

If this is something you are not looking for - please don't use this mod and stay with the defaults.

Because there is no way to combine the 'conveniences' of the Default view with the restrictions of this more realistic view setting.


Edited by PeterP

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I don't think the HUD in DCS are "real" representation of a real collimated sight/HUD

 

The problem we have now is not that when we move left right the HUD gets cropped... that's normal and everyone understands it.

 

The problem is that when you move your body (not eyes, eye, or self turning eye... it doesn't matter this at all and also the FOV don't matter in this problem) backwards the HUD stays the same size while the cockpit frames normally, gets smaller. The HUD is not linked via 'uncertainty principle' to the player. Projected as it be the HUD should get smaller as you move towards the tail of the plane. What happens is that it is staying with the viewpoint.

 

Basically the HUD is projected not on that glass but on an invisible "transparent plane" at a fixed distance in space placed in front of players eye (s). That distance is somehow identical with the distance from the players eyes to the cockpit (3d shape) HUD projection glass(es). And that invisible plane is linked to players eye/viewpoint and not the frame of the cockpit or HUD frames/glasses.

 

Basically... it is an illusion that the HUD is projected on that glass. It isn't.

 

PS and control to make it smaller or bigger should exist. It's not like it has to have a universal accepted by god dimension.


Edited by zaelu

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Thanks for your input, Zealu.

 

...

 

Lets put aside that I really don't know/understand how to bring your whole post into context with this thread and/or my post before yours and I have even bigger problems to understand some terms you are using.

 

I just want to point out that you are wrong with a very important point - and I just want to prevent that others get even more confused how a real collimated HUD is working.

 

 

The problem is that when you move your body (...) backwards the HUD stays the same size while the cockpit frames normally, gets smaller. The HUD is not linked via 'uncertainty principle' to the player. Projected as it be the HUD should get smaller as you move towards the tail of the plane. What happens is that it is staying with the viewpoint.

 

 

What you describe as 'The problem' is a absulute correct simulation inside of DCS.

And you would experience the same in Real life with a collimated HUD.

 

The HUD projection will always cover the same FOV - regardless how near/far your eyes are away from the combiner glass.

- And if there is a change (because of manufacturing tolerances that differ from the ideal) - you wouldn't be able to measure it inside a distance of less than 1 meter (~3feet).

 

Let me please quote a explanation from wikipedia - and I marked the most important facts that are explaining the 'why' in green-italic-bold:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display

  • CollimationThe projected image is collimated which makes the light rays parallel. Because the light rays are parallel the lens of the human eye focusses on infinity to get a clear image. Collimated images on the HUD combiner are perceived as existing at or near optical infinity. This means that the pilot's eyes do not need to refocus to view the outside world and the HUD display...the image appears to be "out there", overlaying the outside world.
  • EyeboxThe optical collimator produces a cylinder of parallel light so the display can only be viewed while the viewer's eyes are somewhere within that cylinder, a three-dimensional area called the head motion box or eyebox. Modern HUD eyeboxes are usually about 5 lateral by 3 vertical by 6 longitudinal inches. This allows the viewer some freedom of head movement but movement too far up/down left/right will cause the display to vanish off the edge of the collimator and movement too far back will cause it to crop off around the edge (vignette). The pilot is able to view the entire display as long as one of the eyes is inside the eyebox.[9]

You can find here much more detailed explanation: http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_4.pdf
Edited by PeterP

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Well explained thx, but that actualy my point here.

Lets suppose that the default head/eye position is wrong and this mod fixed it so now we have correct view.

Is there any way to 'recalibrate' the hud for this corrected view?

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My post is connected with the thread by this link:

 

When you insert "eyes displacement" from neck via this mod your viewpoint moves forward. As a result some of peripheral vision gets cropped so in order to get it back you have 2 options:

 

1. increase FOV which distorts the cockpit especially when you look up.

2. move your body backwards which makes the HUD projection be bigger than HUD frame and be cropped.

 

The second effect is the problem. No matter how "normal" it is.

 

My opinion... which could be wrong is that the HUD projection is a bit faked and not really a collimated projection on the actual HUD glass from the cockpit 3D shape.

 

This can be tested (I think) by turning the cockpit shape via "cockpit local point" fromServer.lua 45 degrees left or right. If the HUD is projected on the actual glass it will vanish when staying in that twisted cockpit... but my opinion is that it will not but actually will stay visible in front because it is projected on an invisible surface that just coincides at the "default" viewing distance with the HUD actual glass.

 

This would not be a problem if that is the technology used by the game engine but... my impression is that the effect of collimation is not correct and the HUD gets shrunk too much when leaning forward and appears to big when leaning backwards. As if that invisible plane of projection is more linked to the player eyes than the cockpit as a shape.

 

Also... consider it my impression that the HUD from Ka50 and A10C are "different" collimated.

 

Now.

 

Explanations aside.

 

The fact is that any real HUD have controls for calibration with the HUD glass so it will fit the cockpit better or the pilot. These controls can make the HUD be projected bigger or smaller on the glass. This way. After we place the pilot where we find it best. We could adjust the projection of the HUD to fit as we like on the HUD glass and then.... and only then the "Collimation technology" would do it's job.

 

I hope now I expressed my self better :).


Edited by zaelu

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Well explained thx, but that actualy my point here.

Lets suppose that the default head/eye position is wrong and this mod fixed it so now we have correct view.

 

First:

There is NO wrong/right initial viewpoint with this mod - it's up to you how you set the initial view position up yourself via the snap-views saving option. (A Real Pilot does this by adjusting his seat height)

My delivered snapviews.lua is just a little helper - as it sets the initial view point very close to the default one.

 

The 'only' mayor thing that this mod changes is that it moves your virtual camera (that represents your in game eye) 16cm in front and 10 cm up of the pivot point.

 

But this can be also easily changed again by following my annotations in the server.lua.

 

 

 

Is there any way to 'recalibrate' the hud for this corrected view?

Second:

 

No/Yes.

 

Means:

 

Not possible on a end-user level for FC3 , as the FC3 planes have their devices hard coded.

 

It sure might be possible in other modules (reading up to post #22 would have given you the info.),

but this is very complicated and tiresome if not impossibile - as you have to reverse-engineer the whole HUD with all it's functions and sub-pages of a specific module.

 

This thread/mod maybe gives you a small insight what a task this can be:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1808261#post1808261

(his mod has a pdf with explanations what have been done to let the HUD rendered correctly when a stereoscopic render plug-in is used).


Edited by PeterP

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I hope now I expressed my self better :).

 

No - your post is confusing me now even more.

 

 

Lets now start from the beginning:

 

My post is connected with the thread by this link:

 

When you insert "eyes displacement" from neck via this mod your viewpoint moves forward. As a result some of peripheral vision gets cropped so in order to get it back you have 2 options:

No. You just move the eyepoint 16cm in front and 10cm up relative to the pivot point. We don't change the FOV with it - so there nothing gets cropped at all - and if - the snapviews aren't saved 'right' . read on....

 

1. increase FOV which distorts the cockpit especially when you look up.

Why you would do this to get back to the same viewpoint you had before you installed this mod? - this doesn't work.

 

2. move your body backwards which makes the HUD projection be bigger than HUD frame and be cropped.

This doesn't makes the HUD become bigger , and this also doesn't crop it by the frame.

This is what's has to be done:

First we move the eye point up and in-front of the pivot-point - than we use a new-snapview that moves the pivot-point back and down. - so the eye-point is at the same place again.

How can this change the picture/HUD-projection at all when looking straight into the 'eye-box' of the HUD ?

 

The second effect is the problem. No matter how "normal" it is.

 

What exact problem you are talking about - and what has it to do with this thread / mod at all ?

 

...

 

My opinion... which could be wrong is that the HUD projection is a bit faked and not really a collimated projection on the actual HUD glass from the cockpit 3D shape.

 

This can be tested (I think) by turning the cockpit shape via "cockpit local point" fromServer.lua 45 degrees left or right. If the HUD is projected on the actual glass it will vanish when staying in that twisted cockpit... but my opinion is that it will not but actually will stay visible in front because it is projected on an invisible surface that just coincides at the "default" viewing distance with the HUD actual glass.

 

This would not be a problem if that is the technology used by the game engine but... my impression is that the effect of collimation is not correct and the HUD gets shrunk too much when leaning forward and appears to big when leaning backwards. As if that invisible plane of projection is more linked to the player eyes than the cockpit as a shape.

 

Also... consider it my impression that the HUD from Ka50 and A10C are "different" collimated.

 

Now.

 

Explanations aside.

 

 

The fact is that any real HUD have controls for calibration with the HUD glass so it will fit the cockpit better or the pilot. These controls can make the HUD be projected bigger or smaller on the glass. This way. After we place the pilot where we find it best. We could adjust the projection of the HUD to fit as we like on the HUD glass and then.... and only then the "Collimation technology" would do it's job.

PS: This may be right in general aviation HUDs that gives you only a artificial horizon - but in a fighter plane it is much more complicated and can't be done 'on the fly'.

The only device that the Pilot can re-calibrate is the seat-height to move his eye-sight in the center of the 'eye-box' of the HUD .

All other things will be done by maintenance and/or the manufacturer of the plane.

... whatever:

 

Please watch carefully following 1:1 comparison of this mod and the Default view of DCS 1.2.5.

 

This mod: Left Side

Default : Right Side

 

Both Have the exact same initial eye-point relative to the cockpit - so there is noting 'cropped' when comparing with the 'default' view... but the left has a pivot point that is 16cm behind and 10cm under the eye-point position.

And both used tracks are 'feed' with the exact same input from a TrackIR.

 

(BTW - This is how it's recorded: First I recorded this track using My mod and the provided Snapvies.lua. Than I did put in the track file the default server.lua and the default snap.views. Than I recorded both tracks and replayed it side by side with VLC player while recording it once again.)

 

 

And as you can see - The HUD looks 100% the same when looking straight forward.

 

Now please explain again (in very simple words - as it's very hot here -and I'm might not so fast as usual... :P)

if your 'the Problem' has anything to do with my modification at all .

 

Reminder: The thread title is "Reworked Cockpit Views with proper Neck"

 

:)

 

- if there is no linkage :

 

Feel free to open a thread to discuss it as much as you like ,

but please don't do this any-more inside this thread/topic as long there is no proof of your concept.

 

 

Please don't get me wrong...

...some 'guessing' here and 'believing' there is might enough to found a church and convincing some others - but this is not enough evidence to expect any more input on this mater - at least from me .

;)

 

 

Thanks.


Edited by PeterP

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Second:

It sure might be possible in other modules (reading up to post #22 would have given you the info.),

but this is very complicated and tiresome if not impossibile - as you have to reverse-engineer the whole HUD with all it's functions and sub-pages of a specific module.

 

Ha, already disscused.

Lazy me for not reading.

*selfslap*

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@Peter.

 

I was talking about this effect.

 

5FyNH.jpg mDJKO.jpg

 

First picture has the eyepoint at 0.0 displacement, second at 0.16

 

Both pictures are at 90 degrees FOV. Both were taken wit Freetrack turned off (program closed).

 

If you think is not related then lets drop this "debate".

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@Peter.

 

I was talking about this effect.

 

5FyNH.jpg mDJKO.jpg

 

First picture has the eyepoint at 0.0 displacement, second at 0.16

 

Both pictures are at 90 degrees FOV. Both were taken wit Freetrack turned off (program closed).

 

If you think is not related then lets drop this "debate".

So why don't you simply change also the pivot-point position via the snapviews save function ? Why not ?

 

The last time:

Eye-point and pivot point are related to each other - isn't it obvious ?.

 

ViewwithNeck-1_zps636c6a0e.jpg

 

 

This is why I provide a modified 'default' snapview.lua....

 

Please read the second step again - and I marked the points of interest in red: >>>

 

2. Optional

If you have not already your own SnapViews.lua and/or

you are not happy with the default cockpit view (F1) position :

Copy the SnapViews.lua into C:\Users\>YOUR USERNAME<\Saved Games\DCS\Config\View\...

And/Or go into DCS World>>Options>>Misc. > Check "Enable User Snap-View Saving" and redefine your default cockpit view while the simulation is running.

 

BTW - I still don't get what you want to tell me - so let's drop this. Thanks.


Edited by PeterP

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