AG effectivness and tactics

Hi guys

I am training a lot on the AG capabilities with all the different bombs and rockets.

But it seems I am having a hard time with a columns of mixed soft and hard targets.:(

First of all I start my descend always above 4000m with a sinkrate of 20° or more. I always end up having finally the piper appearing on my HUD when I am too close to the ground.

I can still evade in a safe 2-3G pull, but I end up beeing way too close to the enemy and under fire.:joystick:

Is there an accurate way to deliver bombs at a safe distance?:helpsmilie:

Can we use the radar to setup the CCIP at a bigger distance ?

I tried also a mix of Fab , cluster bombs and rockets, but I got the feeling that the blast is not strong enough, even against soft target while the bombs hit 2 meter away. Does anyone have the same feeling? I see the AI having the same difficulties.

I noticed also that for rockets, the pipper aims a bit higher than the real impact point.

BTW , it seems we have different version of the aircraft, one with a normal ASP , and an other one with a branch like on the SU25, how can I tell the difference in the mission editor ?

thanks a lot :cheer3nc:

I wouldn't rely on ASP in AG mode now, because it's got bugged somewhat in 1.2.15. The devs are working on the fix, though. CCIP for bombs works OK, for rockets - not so much, for guns - not at all.

Bugged or not, the gunsight-radar combo is just not very good for ground attack sorties, it starts calculating impact point somewhere at 2000+ m from the target, which, in such a fast airplane, is very close and low indeed. There's no workaround it. If You want to drop bombs from higher altitudes, I guess You will have to do it by estimating release point yourself, the fixed net on the gunsight might help.

Poor blast damage and lack of shrapnel damage modeling have always been an issue for most of bombs in DCS. Some folks report adjustments of this problem being done in 1.2.16 beta, but since I don't use it, I cannot confirm.

There's only one version of ASP modeled. It can display either fixed net, or moving piper, or both, You do it by flipping two silver switches on the gunsight base.

Yep, best bet, BL775 cluster bombs, or S-24 rockets for ground attack... Groms do work ok, but you need to follow the path of the missile and use parallax by leaning left and right to find how close it is to your target, keep it on target that way, rather than relying on the pipper.

Although I don't have much time in the -21 yet, I'd also offer that a descent angle of 20 degrees is likely much too shallow. In the A-10 you usually use at least 30, if not 45 in many cases. So you might want to try starting off closer to the target and at a higher descent angle, but same altitude.

In real life this ASP have not ability to computed continuously computed impact point.Pilot simply opened bomb chart,found proper bomb,for

example FAB-500 .For this bomb,there are value of aiming angle,altitude,

dive angle ,velocity and loft.The aiming angle pilot must to set on aiming

angle scale of ASP,next set B and MAN.It is all.Aiming angle for this ASP

is 0-11 degree.You can forget CCIP.

Hi guys

 

BTW , it seems we have different version of the aircraft, one with a normal ASP , and an other one with a branch like on the SU25, how can I tell the difference in the mission editor ?

 

 

thanks a lot :cheer3nc:

I think you may be referring to the guncam. It is a little black contraption mounted on the right of the HUD with a little arm for the lens leaning toward the centre of the HUD. There is a switch second last from the right on the bottom row of the black switches on the right side panel. It is actually the last black switch and there is a white one to the right. You can flip the switch and the camera will appear. Flip it again and the cam is gone. I just leave it off for the clearer view.

Against columns I usually take a set of FAB100 and go in low and fast, works quite nice. Other than that I often use S-32 rockets. A salvo of 4 can be sufficient for artillery or soft targets.

For this bomb,there are value of aiming angle,altitude,

dive angle ,velocity and loft.The aiming angle pilot must to set on aiming

angle scale of ASP,next set B and MAN.It is all.Aiming angle for this ASP

is 0-11 degree.You can forget CCIP.

Would be interesting to try, do you have some tables for such kind of deliveries?

Against columns I usually take a set of FAB100 and go in low and fast, works quite nice. Other than that I often use S-32 rockets. A salvo of 4 can be sufficient for artillery or soft targets.

 

 

 

Would be interesting to try, do you have some tables for such kind of deliveries?

Yes ,I have,but for now its useless.ASP-PFD-21 is in the meanwhile

far-off reality.

I like the S-24B for ground attack. It's more or less a fire & forget weapon, fires in pairs, and large enough warhead to do damage. I'm still working with the Grom but I don't like having to follow it in to the target.

MORG

I like the S-24B for ground attack. It's more or less a fire & forget weapon, fires in pairs, and large enough warhead to do damage. I'm still working with the Grom but I don't like having to follow it in to the target.

 

MORG

You are right about the S-24 rockets. But you need to be pretty close to the target to launch them. I haven't been able to hit much with the Grom, not even in the training missions!

The ASP accuracy of bombs, rockets and gun is okay, so long as you keep it set on "msl" mode and not "gyro".

And a steeper dive angle (30 or 40 degrees) will help as well. And be sure the radar is on and in the "fixed beam" mode.

In real life this ASP have not ability to computed continuously computed impact point.Pilot simply opened bomb chart,found proper bomb,for

example FAB-500 .For this bomb,there are value of aiming angle,altitude,

dive angle ,velocity and loft.The aiming angle pilot must to set on aiming

angle scale of ASP,next set B and MAN.It is all.Aiming angle for this ASP

is 0-11 degree.You can forget CCIP.

Well these boys just want CCIP :) In fact you are right Mig pilots bombed by chart not by CCIP as ASP-PFD IS UNABLE TO COMPUTE IMPACT full stop here you go high fidelity simulation. However I think it is less annoying that you game can do something what the real thing can not as if you want realism you just dont use it. It is more annoying if your game does not do something what the real one does like radar ranging.

I was playing around with our fictional mig-21 (yes a Mig-21 witha CCIP is not a simulator it is a fictional plane) and found an effective way to use it:

Fly fast like more than 1000kph at low altitude like 75m and you will have the fictional CCIP appearing and you can toss a bomb and climb fast, I mean real fast to avoid blast. Surprizingly accurate. I start my bombing run at like 1500m at 1000kph fix my fixed net vertical line on the target and dive at full gas until I see the toy CCIP then I level out and wait until it is over the target and push.

Well these boys just want CCIP :) In fact you are right Mig pilots bombed by chart not by CCIP as ASP-PFD IS UNABLE TO COMPUTE IMPACT full stop here you go high fidelity simulation. However I think it is less annoying that you game can do something what the real thing can not as if you want realism you just dont use it. It is more annoying if your game does not do something what the real one does like radar ranging.

 

I was playing around with our fictional mig-21 (yes a Mig-21 witha CCIP is not a simulator it is a fictional plane) and found an effective way to use it:

Fly fast like more than 1000kph at low altitude like 75m and you will have the fictional CCIP appearing and you can toss a bomb and climb fast, I mean real fast to avoid blast. Surprizingly accurate. I start my bombing run at like 1500m at 1000kph fix my fixed net vertical line on the target and dive at full gas until I see the toy CCIP then I level out and wait until it is over the target and push.

Yes sissy, you are fully right.ASP in this status is off reality,unfortunately.

I've personally hope that mebers of LNS have bring this systém very close

reality for us.

Look I dont mind that it has a CCIP. What I miss (or just missed somewhere) is stating that it is somewhat a "game mode" a cheat and is is up to you if you use it the real one does not have one. Memorizing a sh..load of charts to toss bombs is something you can not expect from casual gamers. Probably it is not a coincidence that to learn piloting these birds took years after all :)

What I cant forgive for example is the lack of fuses which would be an integral part of startup procedure. The actual ASP gun mode is also a sin against the memory of this beauty :)

Look I dont mind that it has a CCIP. What I miss (or just missed somewhere) is stating that it is somewhat a "game mode" a cheat and is is up to you if you use it the real one does not have one. Memorizing a sh..load of charts to toss bombs is something you can not expect from casual gamers. Probably it is not a coincidence that to learn piloting these birds took years after all :)

What I cant forgive for example is the lack of fuses which would be an integral part of startup procedure. The actual ASP gun mode is also a sin against the memory of this beauty :)

Please blame ED for the fuses, LNS has nothing to do with it as for damage and blast modeling.

Hint: The DCS main forum has a wishlist :thumbup:

I rarely blast things just like to fly around :) I am suprized as my DCS Mi-8 has fully working fuses.

Ok I think we had a misunderstanding due to language issues. As this thread is dedicated to AG effectivness and tactics, I supposed you are talking about the fuse setting of bombs. Regarding your last post I would assume you mean the current absence of circuit breakers?

Yes, sorry. I mean the so called AZS (Avtomat Zashiti Syety, automatic circuit protector) in the right console. A russian plane is unreal without it.

Yes, sorry. I mean the so called AZS (Avtomat Zashiti Syety, automatic circuit protector) in the right console. A russian plane is unreal without it.

Where is this АЗС located in the cockpit and what part is it supposed to take in the startup sequence?

Manual page 42 fuses and circuit brakers. It would not be difficoult to implement it. All you had to do before you use a certain system you have to switch the corresponding circuit breaker on.

So, with CCIP being a bit of a "pimp-my-sight/Alice-in-Wonderland" feature I'm curious how the real ASP works when attacking ground targets. Just glancing over the RL manual I've noticed it mentions range measurement either by radar or by "slant range unit" (whatever and wherever it is). Finger, sissy, does it mean the pilots had to rely on range indicator (the one with the needle) and "launch" / "break off" lights on the sight while attacking with rockets and bombs? Did they always have to manually set angular corrections (piper depression) with the knob on the right of the sight base, similar to what we do in DCS F-86?

it might work the same as say... the JU-87 bombsight, you set the altitude you want to drop at, and the angle of attack, like lets say you set the drop altitude to 3000m, so you'd climb to 5000m, dive in at the angle you set, and as soon as you hit 3000m, you release the bomb, except the ju-87 had an automatic bomb release, so as soon as you hit the drop point, it did it on its own.

though this is just a random guess...

Slangt range unit is a simple analogue computer which triangulated distance from the altitude and pitch of the aircraft.

Bombing was an art on this plane it was practiced by dive bombing or horizontal bombing. Both involved memorizing shitload of charts at what speed pitch altitude etc to release. The pilot never really saw the impact point just flew over it at a given altitude speed and pitch (taken from the chart) and when target passed the mark he pushed the release button after a given time (also taken from the chart).

Even ground attack planes of that era did not have a fully functional CCIP (as implemented) I am not sure about western planes but I suspect that even western counterparts in the 70s lacked this feature. Think about it for a moment to constantly calculate impact you need very accurate altitude, speed (all vectors) and projectile ballistics (for each bomb it was different) information and most importandly a COMPUTER to put these together :)

Growing up, I had a neighbor who flew F-4E's in the USAF. We talked about bombing and he called it Kentucky Windage ... specific dive angle, specific altitude, and specific airspeed. They used charts for specific types of bombs to get their dive info.

MORG

Slangt range unit is a simple analogue computer which triangulated distance from the altitude and pitch of the aircraft.

Bombing was an art on this plane it was practiced by dive bombing or horizontal bombing. Both involved memorizing shitload of charts at what speed pitch altitude etc to release. The pilot never really saw the impact point just flew over it at a given altitude speed and pitch (taken from the chart) and when target passed the mark he pushed the release button after a given time (also taken from the chart).

Even ground attack planes of that era did not have a fully functional CCIP (as implemented) I am not sure about western planes but I suspect that even western counterparts in the 70s lacked this feature. Think about it for a moment to constantly calculate impact you need very accurate altitude, speed (all vectors) and projectile ballistics (for each bomb it was different) information and most importandly a COMPUTER to put these together :)

I'm not very sure ,but first true simulation bombing mode CCIP,CCRP had

A-7D or E.

A-6A had CCRP with the DIANE system. Since the 60's