DCS: M-III by Razbam ?

No love for the Mirage IV?

That's among my favorite aircraft. truly awe inspiring and more than a little bit terrifying in form and function

Is that not a Mirage 5?.

 

And not a Mirage III.

 

Thought Belgium never had the Mirage III but only the Mirage 5.

 

And if you look at the nose in the picture that looks like a 5 and not a III =P.

Yes, indeed Belgium used Mirage 5. But it's still the same family :thumbup:

Indeed Mirage 5 is a relatively close derivative of the Mirage III.

Mirage 2000 OTOH is a brand new aircraft.

No love for the Mirage IV?

 

That's among my favorite aircraft. truly awe inspiring and more than a little bit terrifying in form and function

I love the IV too, but it would be kind of very limited in terms of gameplay, wouldn't you think?

And (second reason), its strategic/nuclear nature will probably make all the needed data mining about it that more harder (or even impossible).

It's true it look similar, yet without FBW it will be more challenging to fly. :joystick:

Well it does have "Autocommand" in the pitch axis which is effectively FBW providing constant stick force per G, Autotrim and attitude hold :)

Is that not a Mirage 5?.

 

And not a Mirage III.

 

Thought Belgium never had the Mirage III but only the Mirage 5.

 

And if you look at the nose in the picture that looks like a 5 and not a III =P.

Embarrassingly I have to admit that it is a Mirage 5 indeed. :doh:

Thx for pointing it out mattebubben.

Well it does have "Autocommand" in the pitch axis which is effectively FBW providing constant stick force per G, Autotrim and attitude hold :)

How useful was the R530? We have an inert one in our mess, and it looks rather large and heavy compared to the Sparrow and AMRAAM

How useful was the R530? We have an inert one in our mess, and it looks rather large and heavy compared to the Sparrow and AMRAAM

Not very useful from the testimony I have red. However its efficiency in the sim remains undetermined because the main issue seems to have been its reliability and this is not simulated.

How useful was the R530? We have an inert one in our mess, and it looks rather large and heavy compared to the Sparrow and AMRAAM

The R530 (we are talking about the bog standard R530 as fitted to the mirage III .... not the Super R530 fitted on the Mir2K) was not of much use in the modern world.We had nothing but fusing issues with the thing. Biggest cause for concern was the influence fuse. Originally it armed at 2.2sec after mechanical launch. We had a spate of R530 detonating as soon as the influence fuse armed ... being a slow missile this occurred right in front of your face and was pretty scary! ... the cause of this self detonation was never fully cured but influence fuse arming was extended to 4.5 seconds to give a slight increase in personal protection.

Max range around 8nm on the front. From Lock to ready to launch took up to 4 seconds as the radar and missile talked to each other. The Gunsight provided steering cues that consisted of a winged reticle that displace from the centre you flew the fixed cross to centre the reticle. Once you entered the Fire zone a green light appeared next to the gunsight and firing tone was heard.. there was an Autofire option as well. This just required the pilot to cancel sight orders the missile then launched automatically at a point called "Topt" .... much like Rmax2 or rttr nowadays. You had to ensure the seeker head could see the target. If like in an extreme Snap up attack the seeker was shielded by the aircraft structure you got a chooped tone called "masking tine" in most case a small change in pitch or roll would unmask the missile and good continuous launch tone was heard.

It was strictly a look up or level missile. Certainly firing through the radar ground line was sure to result in premature detonation.

In its day 1963-1980 against non jamming Badgers/Bears it might have been ok, reasonable sized warhead. It did have a HOJ function but only really any good against a simple noise jammer. So all in all not really that impressive but it was better than nothing and did provide an IMC capability against non manoeuvering targets.

There was an IR version of it as well which we didnt have (RAAF). I guess the IR version was probably in the same league as Firestreak ... though slower and with a much bigger warhead. The warhead was of the really good things in the R530.

The R530 (we are talking about the bog standard R530 as fitted to the mirage III .... not the Super R530 fitted on the Mir2K) was not of much use in the modern world.We had nothing but fusing issues with the thing. Biggest cause for concern was the influence fuse. Originally it armed at 2.2sec after mechanical launch. We had a spate of R530 detonating as soon as the influence fuse armed ... being a slow missile this occurred right in front of your face and was pretty scary! ... the cause of this self detonation was never fully cured but influence fuse arming was extended to 4.5 seconds to give a slight increase in personal protection.

 

Max range around 8nm on the front. From Lock to ready to launch took up to 4 seconds as the radar and missile talked to each other. The Gunsight provided steering cues that consisted of a winged reticle that displace from the centre you flew the fixed cross to centre the reticle. Once you entered the Fire zone a green light appeared next to the gunsight and firing tone was heard.. there was an Autofire option as well. This just required the pilot to cancel sight orders the missile then launched automatically at a point called "Topt" .... much like Rmax2 or rttr nowadays. You had to ensure the seeker head could see the target. If like in an extreme Snap up attack the seeker was shielded by the aircraft structure you got a chooped tone called "masking tine" in most case a small change in pitch or roll would unmask the missile and good continuous launch tone was heard.

 

It was strictly a look up or level missile. Certainly firing through the radar ground line was sure to result in premature detonation.

 

In its day 1963-1980 against non jamming Badgers/Bears it might have been ok, reasonable sized warhead. It did have a HOJ function but only really any good against a simple noise jammer. So all in all not really that impressive but it was better than nothing and did provide an IMC capability against non manoeuvering targets.

 

There was an IR version of it as well which we didnt have (RAAF). I guess the IR version was probably in the same league as Firestreak ... though slower and with a much bigger warhead. The warhead was of the really good things in the R530.

Thanks for that!

How was the R550 as a missile? How did it compare to the AIM-9B? I assume we got the Magics to replace them

R530 no comparison to the AIM9B totally different concept.

The R550 replaced our AIM9B's and was an awesome close in missile. With 30x30 autoscan/autolock and an Rmin < guns range it transformed the Mirage III. At the time of its introduction in the RAAF the R550 was the by far the best dogfight missile in the region.

Hopefully Razbam will get the 30 x 30 autoscan/lock implemented on the Mir2K Magic II. Being able to get an R550 lock by simply getting the bandit inside the canopy bow (no radar slewing or button pushing required) is an incredibly good feature.

R530 no comparison to the AIM9B totally different concept.

 

The R550 replaced our AIM9B's and was an awesome close in missile. With 30x30 autoscan/autolock and an Rmin < guns range it transformed the Mirage III. At the time of its introduction in the RAAF the R550 was the by far the best dogfight missile in the region.

 

Hopefully Razbam will get the 30 x 30 autoscan/lock implemented on the Mir2K Magic II. Being able to get an R550 lock by simply getting the bandit inside the canopy bow (no radar slewing or button pushing required) is an incredibly good feature.

Thanks again!

How did the Mirage perform in dissimilar air combat training against our allies? What strengths did you have to play with, and what weaknesses did you have to mitigate?

Thanks again!

 

How did the Mirage perform in dissimilar air combat training against our allies? What strengths did you have to play with, and what weaknesses did you have to mitigate?

My fav stories of IvanKs about DACT is post the Falklands when th RAAF went up against the Sea Harriers - he may share a gun cam photo of some of the results :)

Well the Mirage was not a great turner .... short of the Sea Harrier pretty much every aeroplane we fought against was a better sustained turn fighter than us. What we did have was really great Straight line speed. The limit was 750KIAS ... but many Mirages went a lot faster than that. A clean Mirage would accelerate to 710KIAS at Sea level in 1G flight. It was also rock steady at high speeds and was comfortable to fly there unlike many contemporaries. It was a really small aeroplane and this was a major asset. Head on it was exceptionally difficult to see and this was an attribute we exploited as much as possible. Nose on Pure Pursuit entry "Needle nosing" with very high energy states was the key.

Fighting against A4's Hunters and F5E's was pretty straight forward though you had to avoid the slow speed fight. We could turn with these guys for perhaps 270degrees but needed to keep the smash up and be able to exit at Vmax if required. Mind you if you got really embarrassed and Cough "slightly" exceeded the AOA limits and pressed into the region we called "Deep Purple" you could really surprise the F5E drivers. A "deep purple" rolling scissors with an F5E surprised a few of them.

Against the later threats such as F15/F16 then Tactics pre merge were the key. Screwing up their sort at critical ranges and pulling surprises to get a couple of guys in close and unobserved was the plan. If you could survive the BVR AIM7 shots on the way in then using Head on needle nose entries we did remarkably well. WVR dog fighting the R550 performance was eye watering.... but you had to survive the BVR entry and get in unobserved. However if you screwed the entry you were in a World of hurt. Defeating the AIM9L in the face was dooable but required "careful" engine management, it was something we became very proficient at.... but was only really possible in the initial merge.

When we ran out of a fight we were NEVER run down by an F15 or little mouth F16's.

As to the Sea Harrier ... not much of a contest. We could turn better than him, we had at least a 200K advantage on the deck. Its VIFF was impressive but a one time manoeuver that turned himself into a flare very quickly. Few Sea Harrier pilots relied or used it. They did have another mini VIFF they called "nozzling". this was very small repetitive nozzle movements to get a little more turn out of the jet but it couldn't be used a lot because it cost energy as well. I do recall getting tone on a turning Harrier could be difficult. I hasten to add that in the Sea Harrier combats I got involved in (post Falklands) both sides were operating at reasonable fuel states and both sides with good GCI and both sides with very similar abilities and exceptional training. We could hold our own with relative ease in these circumstances.

The comparison with the Falklands (Mirage/Dagger v Sea Harrier) is unavoidable but not really relevant comparing each types raw capabilities. The Argentines really were operating at extreme range with dodgy GCI and in the case of the Daggers really crap missiles ...(Shafrir) which they couldn't carry on most strike sorties as the drag penalty was just too much. Some of the Argentine Mirages carried the R550 (last 7 delivered) and the R530. R530 in this arena was imo just a drag penalty.... though I guess it might have been of use against Victors/Vulcans or the Nimrod. Against the Sea harrier it was a complete waste of time. All credit to the UK they had good missiles (9L) superlative training. the Argentine's on the other hand had fearsome courage and determination but lacked current world experience that UK forces brought to the fight and the Argentine's were always operating at extreme range.

So Ivan you flew M3s with the RAAF?

So Ivan you flew M3s with the RAAF?

Yes :)

Well looks like razbam shouldn't have a problem with it then....oh but then there's the variants differences......I almost had a fighter boner.

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Then came the Hornet and it was 180 out; you can turn well and fight a deadly slow fight, but you can't run ;)

 

Flew the Hornet too :)

A couple of old VHS RAAF Mirage video. in Part 2 at 2:30 you can see an R530 launch and see what a lumbering missile it was

Part1

Part2:

Yes :)

How confident were you guys at dealing with an Indonesian air attack? I think JORN was in it's infancy as our Mirages reached the end of their service? Did you view their fighters at the time (MiG-21s, F-5s off memory) as a threat? And were you confident of succesfully stopping a Badger attack?

How confident were you guys at dealing with an Indonesian air attack? I think JORN was in it's infancy as our Mirages reached the end of their service? Did you view their fighters at the time (MiG-21s, F-5s off memory) as a threat? And were you confident of succesfully stopping a Badger attack?

Err need to be careful here, ... but Indonesia (certainly in my time) was not considered a credible Air threat and imo still isnt .... but I think I better leave it at that :)

As to their Mig21's .... well they were all being gobbled up by the the US for constant Peg !.... and most of them wernt air worthy. I recall a very bizare encounter with a couple of US Aggressor pilots who came to "visit" us at Butterworth. All seemed quite weird at the time but now we know the reason for their "visit". As to Badgers ... I might be an old fart but they preceded me :)

Gents, to remind you all, we'll building the CJ.. AIM-9B equipped. The Israelis even had the radar removed out of most of them as being unreliable and unsuited for pure dogfighting their III's excelled. It's still a question whether DCS will implement Shafir missiles... to early to tell.

Hank

Err need to be careful here, ... but Indonesia (certainly in my time) was not considered a credible Air threat and imo still isnt .... but I think I better leave it at that :)

 

As to their Mig21's .... well they were all being gobbled up by the the US for constant Peg !.... and most of them wernt air worthy. I recall a very bizare encounter with a couple of US Aggressor pilots who came to "visit" us at Butterworth. All seemed quite weird at the time but now we know the reason for their "visit". As to Badgers ... I might be an old fart but they preceded me :)

Fair enough, OPSEC is no joke. You guys ever practice maritime strikes against the RAN? I suppose with their A-4s, you could have a fairly comprehensive fleet defense/attack scenario

I like seeing your input here on the qirks of the M3, what other fun fantastic details were there about the aircraft.....if you can say

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Great posts IvanK...lived in Newcastle NSW back in the day, still make trips to Fighter World. Served in ADF (Grunts) late 70s early 80s... fond memories of Mirages flying over, simulating GA on us, corkscrewing upwards after run..Singleton 80?? If memory serves me...will see if I can dredge some shots I took from those days..Surely the French lady was one of if not the best looking aircraft of its day..

Should add I will be buying this module the minute it becomes available...