DCS: M-III by Razbam ?

[Angelthunder]

Just to make it clear:

We go with the 9B and from there on, we´ll see how far we can evolve within the same module.

JoJo and Hae are just to avid avition fanatics, too bad you can´t put expressions to the written word, because i pretty much know it would sound like 2 guys over beers discussing about soccer..it´s all about passion

Prowler

So it's confirmed that we are getting the Six Day War Atar 9B jet pipe variant to go along with the current 9C your making.I can't wait to see pictures of your progress with that variant.:thumbup:

[TheSkipjack95]

What kind of Avionics package can we expect ? I'm having trouble finding any real doc on the subject. I read that the CJ was less complex than the French C.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Have you flown the mig21 or the f5? Basically similar fidelity as far as navigation and radar complexity.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[mattebubben]

Does the Mirage IIICJ have a RWR system?

And if it had one was the delivered with it did it get one at a later date.

 

And also the Mirage IIICJ is slightly older

avionics wise then the Mig-21Bis or F-5E-3

(The Mirage IIICJ were Delivered between 1961-1964 where as the Mig-21Bis entered service in 1972 same with the F-5E though our F-5E-3 with its RWR probably entered service in the late 1970s).

 

So were as in general the Mirage III,Mig-21 and F-5 are of similar age

but the Mig-21Bis and F-5E are the last production variants

where as the Mirage IIICJ is an earliest variants of the Mirage III.

Edited November 11, 2016 by mattebubben

[jojo]

I don't think the Mirage III CJ were delivered with RWR, I can't see the associated antennas on the fin, like Mirage IIIE.

 

I don't know if it has been retrofitted at a later date.

Edited July 15, 2017 by jojo

[ViFF]

There was no RWR on the Mirage IIIC Shahak.

 

This is a 1960 fighter jet that was first received in the IAF back in 1962.

 

You don't get any warning that a radar is looking at you or locking you up or any launch warning for that matter.

 

The IAF pilots had to spot all the SA-2 and SA-3 launches against them visually, and they would perform their break turns instinctively as the missiles got close.

 

In the literature that I have read in Hebrew the IAF pilots described the SA-2's as a "big brightly burning long telephone poles rising from the ground and coming right at you!" So these were easy to spot, but the SA-3 was a little trickier, because of its smaller length and slightly smaller size the SA-3 could easily be mistaken for an SA-2 being further away and not realizing it is actually the smaller SA-3 and its much closer then you think!

 

The method used by the IAF pilots was to scan for launches and wait for the missiles to take their interception vectors. Once they see them inbound they would pick out the ones that "stop moving" relative to them - these are the ones that need to be outmanuvered! I read accounts of pilots having to dodge 4 to 5 missiles at the same time.

 

In the 1967 war it wasn't too bad as there were only a few systems in place, mostly by the Egyptians.

 

Starting from the 1970 attrition skirmishes and the full blown 1973 war this was becoming a serious problem as there many overlapping systems that were moved right up to the suez canal and there was also the newer SA-6 that was very maneuverable at low altitude, very difficult SAM to dodge. The proliferation of the ZSU-23 Shilka with their radar guided cannons and the advent of the shoulder launched SA-7 made low flying very very very dangerous...

 

Interesting times ahead...

Cheers

[Vatikus]

Anyone know when the radar was removed from CJ? With the introduction of F4E or earlier?

[mattebubben]

There was no RWR on the Mirage IIIC Shahak.

 

This is a 1960 fighter jet that was first received in the IAF back in 1962.

 

You don't get any warning that a radar is looking at you or locking you up or any launch warning for that matter.

 

The IAF pilots had to spot all the SA-2 and SA-3 launches against them visually, and they would perform their break turns instinctively as the missiles got close.

 

In the literature that I have read in Hebrew the IAF pilots described the SA-2's as a "big brightly burning long telephone poles rising from the ground and coming right at you!" So these were easy to spot, but the SA-3 was a little trickier, because of its smaller length and slightly smaller size the SA-3 could easily be mistaken for an SA-2 being further away and not realizing it is actually the smaller SA-3 and its much closer then you think!

 

The method used by the IAF pilots was to scan for launches and wait for the missiles to take their interception vectors. Once they see them inbound they would pick out the ones that "stop moving" relative to them - these are the ones that need to be outmanuvered! I read accounts of pilots having to dodge 4 to 5 missiles at the same time.

 

In the 1967 war it wasn't too bad as there were only a few systems in place, mostly by the Egyptians.

 

Starting from the 1970 attrition skirmishes and the full blown 1973 war this was becoming a serious problem as there many overlapping systems that were moved right up to the suez canal and there was also the newer SA-6 that was very maneuverable at low altitude, very difficult SAM to dodge. The proliferation of the ZSU-23 Shilka with their radar guided cannons and the advent of the shoulder launched SA-7 made low flying very very very dangerous...

 

Interesting times ahead...

Cheers

 

Ok thanks that was what i guessed.

 

(as if i remember correctly RWR systems on Fighters did not start to become common until the late 1960s/early 70s when it was realized it was needed due to experience in Vietnam,

but that many aircraft got retrofitted at that point so wondered if that might have been the case with the CJ).

 

But i take it from your comment that it was never retrofitted either.

 

This will make it interesting to use but will also put it at a disadvantage to the later Mig-21Bis and F-5E,

so will be interesting how it works out i think i can foretell that many people will complain about this fact later on ^^.

[ViFF]

Anyone know when the radar was removed from CJ? With the introduction of F4E or earlier?

 

I found a couple of sources in Hebrew that mention the radar was removed after the 1967 war, replaced by a small counter weight to keep the CG from moving too far back.

 

It was probably after the arrival of the F-4E in 1970 because the two types worked together, for example the trap that they laid to the MiG 21s flown by Soviet pilots.

 

I will try to find some more information...

 

S!

[jojo]

Ok thanks that was what i guessed.

 

(as if i remember correctly RWR systems on Fighters did not start to become common until the late 1960s/early 70s when it was realized it was needed due to experience in Vietnam,

but that many aircraft got retrofitted at that point so wondered if that might have been the case with the CJ).

 

But i take it from your comment that it was never retrofitted either.

 

This will make it interesting to use but will also put it at a disadvantage to the later Mig-21Bis and F-5E,

so will be interesting how it works out i think i can foretell that many people will complain about this fact later on ^^.

 

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but that's why I was pushing for Mirage IIIE :D

[mattebubben]

I would probably also have Preferred a Mirage IIIE,

It would be more formidable (more advanced systems/weapons) it was more common and had more users and would be a better match for other aircraft like the Mig-21Bis and F-5E then the earlier Mirage IIICJ is.

 

But then again those Mirage III systems would make it harder to make

(especially the air-ground modes of the radar) so it would very likely take longer to develop

(as it has some more complexities).

Edited November 16, 2016 by mattebubben

[HAE5904]

The IIICJ was chosen due it's iconic classic combat reputation unparalleled by later marks let alone aircraft types. (exception being the F-15...also in Israeli hands)

[OziRekt]

Well hopefully RAZBAM realise that the vast majority of us would prefer the IIIE, and add that to the module/make it instead

[mattebubben]

Well hopefully RAZBAM realise that the vast majority of us would prefer the IIIE, and add that to the module/make it instead

 

The Mirage IIICJ should be both easier and probably quicker to develop as its less complex.

 

Where as a Mirage IIIE would need the Air-Ground Radar modes to be implemented thus it would first need to wait for the Air-Ground radar mode to be completed by ED and it would also require work by ED and Razbam to Adopt the Air-Ground radar to the Mirage IIIE and modify it to work and look properly (which would also require plenty of work and effort that a Mirage IIIC variant would not need).

 

So they likely had to weigh the options and decide if they think that longer and more complex development would pay off in more sales or not.

 

Thats my Speculations at least.

[ViFF]

Well hopefully RAZBAM realise that the vast majority of us would prefer the IIIE, and add that to the module/make it instead

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

I think the majority would prefer the Mirage IIICJ Shahak.

 

Cheers

[zerO_crash]

And here we are at the thinking game again... Speak for yourself, let`s keep it a fact, not guessing!

[Cunctator]

I respectfully disagree.

 

I think the majority would prefer the Mirage IIICJ Shahak.

 

Cheers

 

I certainly do so. I am much more interested in history than getting the best possible version of an airframe. The Israeli victory in the Six Day war is one of the greatest achievements of the jet fighter era. Nothing would be more appropriate for a military sandbox sim.

[KL0083]

Wish that could be a Mirage G for DCS.

 

＝　ω＝．

[Skjold]

CJ or E - They are both great, 'd be happy with either.

[mattebubben]

Personally i think i might pass on a CJ.

 

A Mirage IIIE i would get but a Mirage IIICJ i think i might pass.

 

Since i want some of the interesting Features that the Mirage IIIE would bring

(Air-Ground Radar Modes and the undernose Doppler Navigation radar etc)

things that a Mirage IIICJ does not have.

 

I might get it at a later date on a sale or something but i dont think i would get a Mirage IIICJ on release.

Edited November 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[streakeagle]

After Korea and prior to Desert Storm, there wasn't a whole lot of air combat history beyond Vietnam, Israel, and India/Pakistan. The aircraft that flew in those conflicts are the ones I like/want the most because I enjoy validating the sim by recreating my favorite air superiority battles, then exploring the effects of alternative tactics, technology, force ratios, etc.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I could only have one Mirage in the game, it wouldn't be the 2000C or the IIIE, it would be the historically significant IIICJ, which is pretty much a contemporary of the F-5E and the MiG-21bis if you restrict the missiles to those that were historically available instead of using the most advanced DCS provides.

[mattebubben]

Well the Mirage IIICJ and the F-5E and Mig-21Bis are not completely Contemporary.

 

As the Mirage IIICJ is over 10 years older.

 

The Mirage IIICJs were delivered between 1962-1964 where as the Mig-21Bis and F-5E first entered service in 1972

(with the F-5E-3 being a later 1970s variant).

 

And they have a number of advantages over the Mirage IIICJ due to that age difference (They have RWR systems the IIICJ does not they have better Radars then the CJ etc)

 

So a Mirage IIIE might be More contemporary to the Mig-21Bis and F-5E-3 we have ingame.

 

The Mirage IIICJ will still be a competitive aircraft performance wise against those two but it will have a disadvantage systems/tech wise.

 

And also dont forget the Iran-Iraq war as that was a pretty significant Air War as well.

Edited November 19, 2016 by mattebubben

[WR269]

Oh man, this is going on and on and on and on. They have already said it will be the CJ. Buy it or not, it is up to you.

 

 

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[tflash]

I vote for Mirage III in DCS! Yes!

[Stratos]

IIIE for me, will pass on the CJ, why? While the CJ saw combat, we does not have any Israel map, the E was more advanced and capable, canc arry more varied ordinance and was used by more airforces and it saw combat as well, like in Malvinas, South Africa and Pakistan.