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Coordinated turns vs. FM


Flagrum

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I know that this was brought up already - in the large bugs thread or in an dedicated "FM oddities" thread ... but this bothers me so much atm that I have to ask this...

 

When I try to perform a coordinated turn .... I fail. I bank slightly, apply rudder to keep the ball + string centered, try to keep the pitch attitude stable. The helo reacts accordingly - for a few moments. Then it rolls back to a horizontal attitude although I keep the cyclic steady (i.e. deflected for the desired amount of banking).

 

To counter that, I deflect the cyclic more, the helo starts again to bank accordingly, but now I either oversteer and the helo keeps rolling, dropping the nose, loosing speed and in general just starts wobbling and jumping around like a drunken ... gazelle.

 

I get it, "agile", "nimble" and all that, but when trying to fly a turn, there seems to be nothing like some sort of "inert stability". At all. Why does the helo rights itself up while in a turn!?

 

Is that something you guys at Polychop are looking into? Or is it really just me sucking at flying a helo?

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What you report here sounds to me like the SA342M SAS authority

It has already been reported to be lowered a bit.

 

The FM has already been corrected in some other areas, and these changing will be part of the next update along with the first set of new weapons.

 

Force Feed Back, Trimming system, autopilot, not FFB controls, and the issue you reported too, will be the next things to be corrected/added after this first weapons update.

 

Thanks for your patience.


Edited by Pat01
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I was hoping it wasn't just me.

Hovering and level flight are no problem for me. But the more I want to turn or "get fancy" with the Gazelle, the more out-of-control I end up being to the point where (even with a dumbed-down cyclic curve to dull sensitivity) I either simply crash; invert and crash; or get into an uncontrollable oscillation that perpetuates itself ... until I crash !

SnowTiger:joystick:

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I know that this was brought up already - in the large bugs thread or in an dedicated "FM oddities" thread ... but this bothers me so much atm that I have to ask this...

 

When I try to perform a coordinated turn .... I fail. I bank slightly, apply rudder to keep the ball + string centered, try to keep the pitch attitude stable. The helo reacts accordingly - for a few moments. Then it rolls back to a horizontal attitude although I keep the cyclic steady (i.e. deflected for the desired amount of banking).

 

To counter that, I deflect the cyclic more, the helo starts again to bank accordingly, but now I either oversteer and the helo keeps rolling, dropping the nose, loosing speed and in general just starts wobbling and jumping around like a drunken ... gazelle.

 

I get it, "agile", "nimble" and all that, but when trying to fly a turn, there seems to be nothing like some sort of "inert stability". At all. Why does the helo rights itself up while in a turn!?

 

Is that something you guys at Polychop are looking into? Or is it really just me sucking at flying a helo?

 

 

Are you flying 2.0 or 1.5 Flagrum?

I do not see these problems on 2.0.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Doesn't really matter - it was like that for me since the first day and still is in the latest 1.5.3 (stable).

 

It might be possible to counter the helos attitude changes - to some extend - if I am very, VERY carefull and focused on the ADI. But that requires about 95 - 105% of my attention and thus doesn't really help to get me where I want the helo to go...

 

In turns, it just seems that the helo has no inert attitude stability - whereas in straight and level flight (~ 150 kph) she flies - hands free - all on her own quite well.

 

Instead, in turns she balks and bucks like a, well ...

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have you tried Gazelle 2.0?

I think it is quite different to 1.5


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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have you tried Gazelle 2.0?

I think it is quite different to 1.5

Yes, I tried it in 2.0 as well. But no, no difference - but that is no surprise as the only the 1.5.3 OB and since friday the 1.5.3 stable contain the latest updates to the Gazelle (latest = only so far, iirc).

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For the 1000000000 time, it is hard because the real one is ;). Practice more and you will master it. There are only small SAS problems that are due to be fixed soon.


Edited by myHelljumper
A lil' smiley to show it is à friendly post.
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For the 1000000000 time, it is hard because the real one is. Practice more and you will master it. There are only small SAS problems that are due to be fixed soon.

:doh:

 

What a useless posting, tbh. Nobody is arguing that it should be easy. Nobody is wondering why it is hard. The only thing that is questioned is, if the FM is really correct here or if there are small SAS problems that are to be fixed soon ....

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I concur with Flagrum.

I have flown the Gazelle in 1.5 OB and 2 and find it hard to control with any proficiency.

 

Sorry, maybe I missunderstood what you guys wanted to say, but take no offense. It was a more friendly post that it sounds ;). Like keep practice it and it will be easyer to makes it do what you wanted it to.

It has been told by the devs that de SAS has too much authority but that the general FM is really close, it has even been tested by real ALAT gazelle pilots.

 

Edit: yeah my post was off from topic, my brain must have been on vacation at that time. Sorry 'bout dat.


Edited by myHelljumper

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Well speaking for myself (although I'm confident this is true for Flagrum as well as many others), I have been and continue to spend countless hours of practice.

But unlike other DCS helos and fixed wing aircraft etc, the Gazelle is proving to be a very difficult bird to master. It just seems to have some really weird behaviors at the most inopportune times, unlike the Huey for example (and NO I'm not comparing flight models of the Huey to the Gazelle ... only the Learning Curve).

 

If it's all me, I'll figure it out. But if there are BUGS or the like that are adversely affecting the Flight Model, then I'd just as soon wait for them to be fixed before wasting countless hours trying to do something the Gazelle isn't currently able to do.

SnowTiger:joystick:

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For me it was overcoming the formula 1 racing car sensitivity of the controllers, but once I adapted, I found her to be very controllable in the co-ordinated turn... just need to work on the entry into the turn as I am lazy on the pedals.

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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For me it was overcoming the formula 1 racing car sensitivity of the controllers, but once I adapted, I found her to be very controllable in the co-ordinated turn... just need to work on the entry into the turn as I am lazy on the pedals.

And you don't have to fight - or rather "control" - it's tendency to right itself up again when banked in a turn? I have - and I find that odd. Granted, I know not too much about the real physics behind helo flight - just my "acuired comon sense" from these forums - but where would such forces come from? Like someone of Polychop basically already confirmed, it seems to me as if the responsible forces are introduced into the system form the outside, i.e. the SAS ...

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And you don't have to fight - or rather "control" - it's tendency to right itself up again when banked in a turn? I have - and I find that odd. Granted, I know not too much about the real physics behind helo flight - just my "acuired comon sense" from these forums - but where would such forces come from? Like someone of Polychop basically already confirmed, it seems to me as if the responsible forces are introduced into the system form the outside, i.e. the SAS ...

 

No I don't see this with the airframe fighting to get level, it seems to hold my input position. I always use a touch of left pedal in a left turn and vice versa. I also don't chase the ball in any of my chopper modules and tend to only reference the VVI and speedo for a coordinated turn.

 

Are you using any curves? mine are only a curve of 8 in the roll which I think is insignificant to make much difference.

but my pedals are 18.

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Do you use curves or a dead zone on the stick?

If I remember correctly you have got a quite good controller system.

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Use of Stick Curves is something that confuses me a bit as well as the Magnetic Brake.

I'm confused only because of Conflicting Videos.

Some say don't use Any Curves on the Cyclic.

I tried it that way (albeit with a 3 Dead Zone on the Neutral/Center position to overcome the Detent) and found it to be too sensitive, so I ended up with a Curve of 15 on Roll and 10 on Pitch with my Rhino Hotas.

 

I also have a slight curve on my Rudder Pedals as well as a Centered Dead Zone.

But even with Curves, I find myself Over-Reacting or man-handling the Cyclic ... or at least the outcome comes across that way.

 

I'll keep at it.

SnowTiger:joystick:

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Regarding curves: I find that it is actually easier to overreact (causing PIO etc) with curves than without. Skip the curves, and use the Y axis saturation to tame the incredibly sensitive cyclic controls. 50% Y saturation is more than enough for any manoeuvre you need to perform in a Gazelle.

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Regarding curves: I find that it is actually easier to overreact (causing PIO etc) with curves than without. Skip the curves, and use the Y axis saturation to tame the incredibly sensitive cyclic controls. 50% Y saturation is more than enough for any manoeuvre you need to perform in a Gazelle.

 

Agreed, which is why I keep the curves low 7 pitch and roll 8, if they are too large I was loosing too much fine control of the chopper but the lower values allowed me to widen the centre control area of the stick and maintain agility, perhaps once I get more hours in the gazelle I will reduce or get rid of these curves.

I found these small curves helped me when holding the chopper in a turn as the line between bank left and centred was just too small for me to hold without curves... No deadzones by the way(perhaps warthogs mechanical dead zone?).

 

I do not use magnetic trim at all, I switch it on but only use the fine trim.

 

Pedals need a large curve on 2.0A

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Hrm. Curves, yes, around 10...ish, iirc, plus some reduced saturation. But yes, those curves could be (one of) the problem(s) here. I will experiment with that later tonight.

 

But it is like you can't really win here. No cuves = deflection range on my G940 (with SimFFB) for regular maneuvers: ~2-3 mm (diameter, not radius! :o). That is ... exhausting. With curves: at the center all is fine, but if I bank a little bit, the gain of the curve is probably kicking me in my butt then.

 

Someone said once, "don't steer the helo, just think of steering it". Perhaps I should dig out my X-65 again. With that thing, even a A-10 can be flown by "mind control", lol. (the drawback is, if the force sensing is set too low, you already "deflect" the stick for 50+ % by just resting your hand on it's hand rest. "Hovering arm flying" ... sucks, tbh.)

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Yes, PC Device sensitivity with the Gazelle in its current form can be an issue and of course greatly influenced by your own set up and equipment.

 

50% Y saturation as mentioned is fine to start with but I find 70% about right for me at the moment using a TMWH + 12cm ext.

 

In turns, ASA issues aside, with this lady correct pitch will help greatly in co-ordination, not enough pitch and she will always try to level, but it is a balancing act. The sensitivity of the pitch axis can make this problematic.

 

Pedals generally should not be necessary in a co-ordinated turn once estalished, of course you use them to maintain longitudinal

trim if torque changes


Edited by Gizzy

 

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Skip the curves, and use the Y axis saturation to tame the incredibly sensitive cyclic controls. 50% Y saturation is more than enough for any manoeuvre you need to perform in a Gazelle.

 

I have in fact, never touched Saturation for any of my Profiles. I am definitely going to try that out and also try to adopt to the suggestions following "this quoted Post".

 

But I'm curious. Should I apply Saturation (without Curves or minimal curve) to both the Pitch and Roll Axis' ? Or just Roll ?

 

Thanks in Advance

SnowTiger:joystick:

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I have in fact, never touched Saturation for any of my Profiles. I am definitely going to try that out and also try to adopt to the suggestions following "this quoted Post".

 

But I'm curious. Should I apply Saturation (without Curves or minimal curve) to both the Pitch and Roll Axis' ? Or just Roll ?

 

Thanks in Advance

 

I apply to both pitch and roll.

 

70% saturation pitch and roll, 80% saturation rudder, 100% saturation collective, no curves

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